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Gas Analyzer vs. Wideband o2

This is a discussion on Gas Analyzer vs. Wideband o2 within the ATV Tech Tips forums, part of the Can-Am Tech Area category; Which is better, and why? Or do you use them together? Sent using Tapatalk......


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Old 03-19-2012, 09:33 AM
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Gas Analyzer vs. Wideband o2

Which is better, and why?

Or do you use them together?



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Old 03-19-2012, 02:27 PM
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no, they are not used together, but some 5 gas analyzers have an A/F reading. it could be used for throttle body injection or carburators, maybe. some idle settings use A/F. but none in the 21st century.

if someone wants to comment on the wideband feel free, but imo it is incase you are wayyyy off you can still see a reading.

i have been saying for the last 4 years or so on these forums, Ad nauseam i admit, that an O2 sensor will tell you that there is oxygen in the exhaust, but not why. a 4 gas analyzer is the diagnostic weapon of choice in the civilized world. and the only device that there are specs for. there are no A/F specs save for the ones that have become urban legends.

the last problem with lambda sensors are they must be at an operating temp to work and must be calibrated for ambient air.

the problem with analyzers is they are very expensive. the ones i worked with had to be calibrated by a certified third pary. really a CO meter would do what most need, if they only had one with datalogging?

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Old 03-19-2012, 04:12 PM
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mongoose - So are you finding the stock ECM with a slip-on and snorkels "fine" with the Analyzer?

I've done alot of research and find that the stock ECM at Low to Mid range RPM is lean for fuel efficiency, and when your up to 80-100% throttle it richen's up to about where it should be for max power.

So all the tuners are making their map's ~13.5 A/F (not knowing if they have an exhaust leak, etc...) in the LOW to MID Range RPM. Then ~12.8 A/F at the top 80-100% throttle, which ends up being a 1 or 2 in the cells of a PCV map with a Slip-ON, or possibly taking away -1 or -2 with the stock exhaust.

Is that wrong according to the Analyzer in general?


Here is my short "IDEA"...

Now I believe we just need a bit different shaped weights in the primary to load the engine correctly the whole RPM band to keep the A/F in the right place as the ECM sensors should do that on it's own... right? Maybe something like 3 VERY Aggressive weights, and 3 Mild weights, very heavy weights mind you. So depending on what you want you can have 2 different primary "settings"... does that makes sense to you?

Pin the throttle and you get the Aggressive weights, but if your nice to it and cruse then you get the mild weights, it's all theory and just started thinking about this today, it may not even work..

p.s. Sad to see a "digital" caliper in your pic
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:16 PM
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haha, well the caliper is cheap and i don't machine cams. there are good people out there for that. i just give 'em the specs i want.

i like how you are picking up on the "load" fsctor. that is so important.

but, personally i am not a fan of the 3+3 weight thingy. no belt pinch. it can get you the Rs you want but pinch is important too. i also have a digital scale and a bench ginder and i'm not afraid to use it!!

seriously, all 6 with good end weight for initial belt pinch and to lock the outter pri is so important. then lighten the mid-toe for RPM afterthe belt is up in the sheves for belt traction. there are so many stock weights for sale cheap these days, opps, maybe i shouldn't have said that?

but, yes, i do "tune" the load, therfor the MAPressure, and hence the fuel mix.

the RPMs must match the cam, and also much progress has been made with sizing the throttle plates to correct MAPressure. if you have noticed, the 500, 650, 800 and even the 1000 ATVs use the 46mm throttle body. if the 500 runs with the same throttle bore as the 1000 it has made sense that the larger displacements are undersized, making them have low (high manifold vaccum) MAP reading at high Rs? this unloads the engine and it goes into cruise mode or lean fuel with advanced timing.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:37 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by mongoose View Post
i like how you are picking up on the "load" fsctor. that is so important.

but, personally i am not a fan of the 3+3 weight thingy. no belt pinch. it can get you the Rs you want but pinch is important too. i also have a digital scale and a bench ginder and i'm not afraid to use it!!
I've had to actually file off Burr's from my Dalton's profile and I've smoothed all my weights with 1200 grit, I've only shaved the sides of my weights, I haven't messed with the profile. I actually just sold my other 3 stock weights to a guy on this form... mailed them today infact, along with my Green Yellow Spring.

Explain to me how 3 weights with the equivalent "even weight distribution" of the normal 6 weights would have different belt pinch?

I would keep the weights close in weight, but the main difference would be different profiles...

I'm now in the process of going with a Yellow/Black secondary spring, it will raise shift-out, and have a bit better back-shifting, I'm hoping to see an all around fast trail riding difference. I now have Tan Primary, & 3 Dalton weights. In Hindsight I would of just bought the spring and grinded/welded on the stock weights.


Main point I'm trying to make is that Flyweight profile can change your A/F....
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:37 PM
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that has made me read you sig and you have a Renne, which is well clutched for 26" tires. and the Daltons are pretty much the same as the stock renne weights, 33g?

so i don't know where you are going here? i would rather discuss cams and throttle bodys? heavy sec springs are also not my thing. too much resistance, load, on a relatively lightly weighted pri?
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:59 PM
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i have just gotten the specs for the stock 1000 cams. so it will be fun to "make" some cams and adjust the map with computer dyno simulations?

it is how it starts.

something to think about and one of my best explanations is the 10 speed bike. if you put it in high you have to push hard on the pedals and it takes time to get to speed. but there is alot of tension (belt pinch) on the chain. put it in low and you can pull wheelies all day, but to get anywhere you have to pedal like mad (high RPM) and there is no tension on the chain (belt pinch). does that make any sense?
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:03 PM
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1000 Can-Am

so i really don't know exactly where to post this but we started here and maybe we can segue forward.

i believe i have a reliable computer sim of the 1000. have had good results with the 800R. it all starts with planning, unless you have the deep pockets for trial and error? and a dyno with nothing else to do? here i can change anything with just a few keystrokes and go from stock to unobtainable. but it is all fun and has resulted in a few usable products. my X MR is one. i am proud of it even though i could not, at the time, get my cam made one off. that is also changing, i am told.

but as a teaser, tell me if this represents the current Rotax engine dyno specs. and please remember that i cannot change the results. the cams, intake, air flow through the heads all result in the final calculations. i use factory specs as much as they are avalalible and then have to work it all into stated factory HP results. it all also must correspond to rider test reports and as much real world info as can be resonably obtained. this is not my life, just interesting, when i need to rest my body.

so, here it is:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 012 800R engine chart.JPG (82.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 012 1000 engine chart.JPG (85.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 012 power-torque.jpg (90.2 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 012 VE to MAP.jpg (78.8 KB, 6 views)
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:16 PM
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as a side note, i couldn't get the 1000 to do anything as advertized until i "installed" a bigger intake? WTF? i thought it used the 09 800r intake?

off to the virtual BRP Parts store and sure enough, the ATV 1000 engine uses the Commander 1000 intake. but not the TB. but it still pulls 230 CFM over the 800R's 220 CFM past the 46mm TB. who would have known?

that is the only way i could get MAPressures (green in the last presentation) to match? and then i got the torque and HP figureswe have been told the ATV 1000 have.

i also should mention the 1000 has it's own cams. unlike the '06-08 800s that shared cams with the 650. only in '09 + the 800 got it's own cams and intake.
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:33 PM
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Keep talkin Mongoose......we are listening! Lots of good info here.
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