Clutch tech for high hp big motors, Stock, Comet, STM billet

[jeffoutty800]

Hey wake, we have been talking a little so I guess I will share with the rest some of whats been going on.

I have a 2010 max that had no bottom end compared to the 07 I had. Stock it did bet a 850 xp popo but it felt slow to me. Thats why the thread was its so slow.

I recently had a dlaton kit put in with a boss noss controller and an hmf with quiet core. Then it was dyno tuned by THEBOM. Now that all that stuff is on there it is real close to having the launch that the 07 had. I will say that by adding the hmf it got real lean and THEBOM added a ton of fuel to it. I am much happier now, but still wonder, where is my 9 more hp over the 07? Oh It will run and beat most any other bike out there except other 800's but the 07 beat most 800's too.

It will almost wheelie in high on pavement, while if I put it in low it will stand up. Not as easy as old yeller did though. Perhaps the weight of the dps unit itself is enough to offset the wheelie?

[HIGHOCTANE]

Quote: Originally Posted by jeffoutty800

Hey wake, we have been talking a little so I guess I will share with the rest some of whats been going on.

I have a 2010 max that had no bottom end compared to the 07 I had. Stock it did bet a 850 xp popo but it felt slow to me. Thats why the thread was its so slow.

I recently had a dlaton kit put in with a boss noss controller and an hmf with quiet core. Then it was dyno tuned by THEBOM. Now that all that stuff is on there it is real close to having the launch that the 07 had. I will say that by adding the hmf it got real lean and THEBOM added a ton of fuel to it. I am much happier now, but still wonder, where is my 9 more hp over the 07? Oh It will run and beat most any other bike out there except other 800's but the 07 beat most 800's too.

It will almost wheelie in high on pavement, while if I put it in low it will stand up. Not as easy as old yeller did though. Perhaps the weight of the dps unit itself is enough to offset the wheelie?

Jeff with the clutching the way it is,even with the Dalton kit,the engine is heavily loaded during low end acceleration at an RPM well below peak HP RPM...this may not have been as noticable of an issue before the detuned lower RPM range,also the lower RPM power difference will change clutch reaction.....you either have to get the engine to peak HP RPM quicker or eliminate the low end detuning...or better yet both.
The fact that both the stock and the Dalton kits have not changed even though the engine perfomance reportably has makes me say hmm.
BTW....does yours actually hold a shift out RPM? Ie when you nail it does it quickly hit and RPM and hold that RPM(within say 100 RPM) for any period of time,say to even 50 MPH?
Mine does not...all the dalton kit really did was shift the RPM up a little...which does help...but still doesn't make it right IMO. Ok...right for optimum low end acceleration...again not a BRP ding,it may work just like they want it to..just not how I want it to,or what I think it is capable of without sacrificing trail manners....I don't mind a jumpy low end..that is what fine motor(ie your nervous system) control is for. These bikes are not for beginners IMO.

[got wake?]

now i have an itch to slap my ECU in my buddy's rene X 840 with the QSC kit in it. my 840 wheelies way better than his and we're both rolling on 32's. i thought it was just the comet and extra motor work i did, but i'm wondering how much my ECU would change his bike.

[sillys1speed]

this is good stuff!

[HIGHOCTANE]

Alright...the secondary clutch senses load,via a spring loaded cam(THE "HELIX")...the primary senses engine RPM,(via the "flyweights).. As engine RPM increases the force appied by the flyweights against rollers closes the primary clutch sheaves together on the belt and pinches it..the more they pinch the belt the more it forces the belt outward towards the outer diameter of the primary sheaves...the belt either must stretched,be pulled down into the secondary sheaves,or the secondary sheaves over come the primaries" pinch..
As the secondary is loaded by the belt,and thus by the primary clutch, the helix buttons(or rollers in the case of a roller secondary) are forced into the helix slots(the helix is a screw type set up...it converts rotational force to lateral force)...the higher the load the higher the rotational force the more lateral,or pinching/clamping force it puts on the belt.
The optimum set up would under WOT as quickly as possible allow the engine to hit peak HP RPM and load the engine to hold it at peak HP RPM until the clutches were fully shifted out...
This means you want the belt all the way to the inside of the primary,and all the way to the outside of the secondary....the lowest possible ratio..and you want it to stay there until the engine is at peak HP RPM..that will net the best possible accceration . In any case with a CVT the engine should quickly rev to an RPM and hold that RPM fairly closely until the clutches are fully shifted out. Meaning the belt is all the way to the outside of the primary and all the way to the inside of the secondary...think of an tenspeed bike...that is high range...or high gear. You want the little sproket up front(primary) when you start...and the little sprocket in the rear at higher speed(the secondary) This shifting of the belt one way or the other is accomplished by witch clutch is exerting the most effective pinch on the belt...sheave angles et play a part..but that is bascally waht determines which way the belt goes...think of it as kind of tug-o-war.
Back to the roller vs button discussion,the Secondary REACTS to the primary..as soon as you nail the engine WOT from a stop the RPMs quickly increase and centrifugal force acts on the primary weights...this loads the belt hard and fast...the helix has to REACT to that...the quicker it reacts the higher in the secondary the belt stays initially and therefore the lower the ratio....that is where the roller secondary comes in...faster reaction ...alot more going on,ie with both set ups the belt will be pulled into the secondary initally,how much and how quickly they comparitively recovery ect might be interesting...given this is assuming everything else is the same..the same clutch sheave angles,diamters ect..same primary springs,weights and secondary springs...


That ought to get the clutch conversation going...lol

[silverz98]

is this boss noss controller about same as the hmf fuel controler? looks about same exepet it as a noss controler built in?

Quote: Originally Posted by jeffoutty800

Hey wake, we have been talking a little so I guess I will share with the rest some of whats been going on.

I have a 2010 max that had no bottom end compared to the 07 I had. Stock it did bet a 850 xp popo but it felt slow to me. Thats why the thread was its so slow.

I recently had a dlaton kit put in with a boss noss controller and an hmf with quiet core. Then it was dyno tuned by THEBOM. Now that all that stuff is on there it is real close to having the launch that the 07 had. I will say that by adding the hmf it got real lean and THEBOM added a ton of fuel to it. I am much happier now, but still wonder, where is my 9 more hp over the 07? Oh It will run and beat most any other bike out there except other 800's but the 07 beat most 800's too.

It will almost wheelie in high on pavement, while if I put it in low it will stand up. Not as easy as old yeller did though. Perhaps the weight of the dps unit itself is enough to offset the wheelie?

[jeffoutty800]

Yes that is exactly right except the boss noss doesnt have hmf's map, It has Jeff Ross's AKA THEBOM, map. My bike was lean all the way across the rpm range, and it made the most power running it rich about 12.5 AFR @6950 rpm With a quiet core it made 56 hp

Quote: Originally Posted by silverz98

is this boss noss controller about same as the hmf fuel controler? looks about same exepet it as a noss controler built in?

Quote: Originally Posted by jeffoutty800

Hey wake, we have been talking a little so I guess I will share with the rest some of whats been going on.

I have a 2010 max that had no bottom end compared to the 07 I had. Stock it did bet a 850 xp popo but it felt slow to me. Thats why the thread was its so slow.

I recently had a dlaton kit put in with a boss noss controller and an hmf with quiet core. Then it was dyno tuned by THEBOM. Now that all that stuff is on there it is real close to having the launch that the 07 had. I will say that by adding the hmf it got real lean and THEBOM added a ton of fuel to it. I am much happier now, but still wonder, where is my 9 more hp over the 07? Oh It will run and beat most any other bike out there except other 800's but the 07 beat most 800's too.

It will almost wheelie in high on pavement, while if I put it in low it will stand up. Not as easy as old yeller did though. Perhaps the weight of the dps unit itself is enough to offset the wheelie?

[jeffoutty800]

Quote: Originally Posted by HIGHOCTANE

Quote: Originally Posted by jeffoutty800

Hey wake, we have been talking a little so I guess I will share with the rest some of whats been going on.

I have a 2010 max that had no bottom end compared to the 07 I had. Stock it did bet a 850 xp popo but it felt slow to me. Thats why the thread was its so slow.

I recently had a dlaton kit put in with a boss noss controller and an hmf with quiet core. Then it was dyno tuned by THEBOM. Now that all that stuff is on there it is real close to having the launch that the 07 had. I will say that by adding the hmf it got real lean and THEBOM added a ton of fuel to it. I am much happier now, but still wonder, where is my 9 more hp over the 07? Oh It will run and beat most any other bike out there except other 800's but the 07 beat most 800's too.

It will almost wheelie in high on pavement, while if I put it in low it will stand up. Not as easy as old yeller did though. Perhaps the weight of the dps unit itself is enough to offset the wheelie?

Jeff with the clutching the way it is,even with the Dalton kit,the engine is heavily loaded during low end acceleration at an RPM well below peak HP RPM...this may not have been as noticable of an issue before the detuned lower RPM range,also the lower RPM power difference will change clutch reaction.....you either have to get the engine to peak HP RPM quicker or eliminate the low end detuning...or better yet both.
The fact that both the stock and the Dalton kits have not changed even though the engine perfomance reportably has makes me say hmm.
BTW....does yours actually hold a shift out RPM? Ie when you nail it does it quickly hit and RPM and hold that RPM(within say 100 RPM) for any period of time,say to even 50 MPH?
Mine does not...all the dalton kit really did was shift the RPM up a little...which does help...but still doesn't make it right IMO. Ok...right for optimum low end acceleration...again not a BRP ding,it may work just like they want it to..just not how I want it to,or what I think it is capable of without sacrificing trail manners....I don't mind a jumpy low end..that is what fine motor(ie your nervous system) control is for. These bikes are not for beginners IMO.

These Bikes are not for beginners for sure. If you dont respect the happy button, it will bite you.

Mine does hold rpms right at 7000 for a while up to about 55 or so. I havent ridden it to much since it has been tuned, but did play around on it today. It feels much faster now, and the dyno says it makes peak power in .4 seconds. It was real hard to get a good reading power wise on the dyno cause it wanted to spin the dyno tires up to 6000 rpm. We got some heat in the tires and he brought the rpm's up slowly and it made 56 hp. He has tuned quite a few bikes and says this one feels good to him right where its at so I will take his word. I know at the Leerjak Aurora ride, Jeff's 800 gade beat voodoo's 840 a few times so I think Jeff knows his stuff.

[Voodoo]

You are right JeffOutty...

Clutching means a lot. I have to get my clutching tuned for sure. The power is there, but it's not right for the 840 motor...not right now. But, I doubt I stay with the 840, given the 912 is out now,,, so we'll see.

[jeffoutty800]

Mine runs a whole lot better since Jeff tuned it for sure, but if I do much more to it, the I don't think it wood be very trail freindly. My main purpose of this bike is to trail ride. I rode 700 miles in 7 days at hatfield. If I make it run like an 840 or 912, wood I be as comfortable? The main reason I bought the 2010 was for the power steering. I want the big cadillac for the trails.

Voodoo, your bike was a ton of fun to play with, I just don't think I am a good enough rider to handle such a beast on the trail. Then to step up to a 912? Maybe in 5 years or so if it's time for a new one, then turn this into a racer.

A little off topic here anyway, but with the talk of the new style clutch, is this something that wood be trail freindly for riding the way I do? Or is it just a racing type clutch? Looks like a work of art to me, and looks like much more efficent way to get the power out of the motor. I am thinking a regular cvt system loses about 30% of the engines power, with this clutch system wood the system gain you 10% of that lost power back?

I understand it's very expensive, but if you have 30% lost hp in the clutches, and by eliminating as much of that 30% as possible, you could see huge real gains, and still have a stock bike.

I may be way off in my thinking here?