[JBreezy]

I had Mr. RPM rebuild my gen 1 800 after it was flooded. But ever since putting everything back together, the bike just won't work right. It'll start if given throttle, but it won't idle at all. I've replaced the idle air control valve and the throttle position sensor and took it to a shop to have them zero the TPS, but they still can't make it run right. While running with the throttle cracked open (the only way it'll run) it never sounds right or feels right, like the mixture is possibly off. But the shop that has my bike right now said the software says my ECU's advanced timing is set to 128 degrees, and they think it's high, but they also don't know what it should be....? I'm not super confident it's at a great place, but regardless.

Have any of you had problems like this at all? I can't find anything for ECU advanced timing settings in the search on the forum or google.

 

[BombardierBomb]

Well welcome to the site, anyway.

I can't comment on timing, other than to just make sure you thought about "everything else" that was affected- electrical/fuel system, etc. Fuel pressure holding at 51 psi? No codes to start with?

 

[JBreezy]

No codes at all, I didn't check fuel PSI, but I did pull the fuel lines off and hit the key switch, fuel flowed, then put the injectors on and hit the start button, I got nice pulses of atomized fuel alternating out of each injector.

 

[JBreezy]

I wanted to update this thread in case anyone else has problems like this. I took my outlander to a dealership and they had it for a week. They checked a bunch of stuff, fuel, spark, compression, etc (I'd already checked this stuff myself) and they couldn't find anything wrong with it, but the mechanic told me the rear cylinder wasn't running. I was shocked, but we started the bike (it'd start with significant throttle input and would run as long as you didn't let off the throttle). After it ran for a little bit, we let it die and the mechanic had me touch the header on the rear cylinder. Ice cold. It hadn't been running. But the dealership wouldn't get into the engine at all because I told them I'd just had a rebuild shop rebuild it, and they told me the shop that rebuilt it would need to be the ones to look at it. At this point, the only option I could think of is that the timing on the rear cylinder was off. I found a youtube video from a place called Mud & Dirt down near Mobile, AL and he showed how to set the timing and also promoted Mr. RPM and has Mr. RPM stuff all over his website, so I think they are actually affiliated.

So I got the bike home from the dealership and started taking it apart to where I could get to the valve covers. I set the first cylinder to 1 on the flywheel and it was in the right position with the lines on the cam gear, so I moved it to 2 and checked the cam gear was upside down! 180 degrees off!!!!!! Ugh! I've been tinkering with this think for like 6 weeks after getting my engine rebuilt because I just knew there's no way Mr. RPM messed anything up in the engine, so my problem had to be something else. How dumb!

I'd never done timing work before, but I watched some youtube videos and in about 3 hours, I had the timing on the rear cylinder fixed and when I went to start the bike, it started right up without any throttle input and it idled on its own and it sounds sooooo good! I took a video when I found the timing off, and another after I fixed it when the bike ran right for the first time. I'll upload them in the next post below this. I'm also going to call Mr. RPM this morning and see if I can get my labor costs refunded or something for them having sent it to me with the timing wrong and me having to work on it for 6 more weeks trying to figure out what was wrong until there was really no other option other than they screwed it up. Hopefully they'll be reasonable with me about this. I've seen them a lot on forums and Dirt Trax even did a couple episodes there at Mr. RPM, so I really thought that'd be the most reputable place to have it rebuilt. I'm disappointed, and I hope maybe someone was just having a bad day and that it's not normal for them to send out rebuilt engines with the timing wrong or other things messed up.

 

[JBreezy]

Paperwork from Mr. RPM rebuild.

Paper from when I first took it to the dealership for them to try to fix it.

Paperwork from dealership after they had it for a week but told me they wouldn't do any work or troubleshooting inside the engine because it'd been rebuilt by someone else.

First video, valve covers off, shows timing off on rear cylinder.

Second Video, everything reassembled, first start, running good and idling on it's own.

 

[BombardierBomb]

Well damn, hate to read this.

I know "no one's perfect", but yeah I'm with you, you're paying a professional for quality work, and ole boy just missed on this one.

Hoping they do right by you for the troubles they're responsible for.

 

[JBreezy]

Well damn, hate to read this.

I know "no one's perfect", but yeah I'm with you, you're paying a professional for quality work, and ole boy just missed on this one.

Hoping they do right by you for the troubles they're responsible for.

Yeah, I mean someone could have just been having a really bad day and not been really focus, or maybe a new person or something. I don't know. I've called Stephen there at Mr. RPM this morning and just sent them a long email with all the pictures, documents, all the parts I'd tried replacing, and all the videos I had of it not running, not idling, not starting without throttle input, etc. Plus the videos of the timing actually being incorrect and then the video of it running right for the first time after fixing the rear cylinder. Took me 6 weeks to get this fixed after getting the engine back from Mr. RPM. I just knew that the engine build wouldn't be the issue, it had to be something else. Gah. I really did try everything though, and there was nothing left except the timing.

I'm hoping they make it right too. They've been really great with me on the phone when I was deciding where to have it rebuilt and dealing with them about shipping the engine, rebuild options, etc.

 

[BombardierBomb]

Yeah that can be the doubly frustrating development - you JUST KNOW the professionals didn't make any mistakes, so it HAD to be something else, and wasted all this time/effort/money, chasing your tail.

Only it was them this time.

Well if nothing else, it helps me keep fresh in mind that even "the pros" make mistakes

 

[JBreezy]

Yeah that can be the doubly frustrating development - you JUST KNOW the professionals didn't make any mistakes, so it HAD to be something else, and wasted all this time/effort/money, chasing your tail.

Only it was them this time.

Well if nothing else, it helps me keep fresh in mind that even "the pros" make mistakes

Yeah, I screw up enough at my "professional" job too lol. It's easy to do it sometimes. Oh well. I'm sure it's not a common thing to happen.

 

[awful knawful]

That sucks.
I was going to ask if timing was correct. Seems to be common mistake

 

[MontanaCanAm]

Thanks for sharing. You've done an excellant job of documenting the problem and the solution, so I would be shocked if Mr. RPM did not acknowledge their part in all this and come to some equitable compromise in making this right. I'm thinking significant return of labor costs.

Damn impressive in searching out and actually getting the bike to run right once again. Frustrating for sure, but you have learned something most people (like me...) would not have a clue on how to go about fixing.

FWIW, in the future an inexpensive IR Temperature tool can help in diagnosing this and many other problems. I use mine to find cold spots in my cabin during subzero temperatures in January.

 

[JBreezy]

FWIW, in the future an inexpensive IR Temperature tool can help in diagnosing this and many other problems. I use mine to find cold spots in my cabin during subzero temperatures in January.

This is a great idea! Thanks!

 

[Bonzo]

Don't forget to change the oil , you've had alot of unburnt fuel drizzling around slug #2 and some probably made its way past the ring(s) .

 

[25TH INFANTRY]

Mud and dirt was very active in southern can am mud racing 10 years ago, its really just one guy, john cannon. they were not really affiliated but friends but john did push Mr rpm products a lot. john rebuilt and tuned a lot of engines back in the day so most of the information on there is good when it comes to rebuilding engines and setting them up properly.

I'm interested to see what Rpm says but i know in the past he has said he has zero warranty. your case seems much different than usual and is about as well documented as you can get it. i hope he does the right thing and makes it right with you, you could always negotiate for parts or services, some cams,mav heads, reflashed ecu, intake and 51 TB would wake up that 800 quite a bit for just throw on parts.

 

[JBreezy]

Yeah, I really considered going with their 860 rebuild when I first talked to them, but I was going to have to drive the complete bike all the way from Nashville to Denton, like 8 hours, drop the bike off, then go back a few weeks later to pick it up again. I really wanted a quicker turn around time and not to have to do all that driving, but at this point it probably would have been better because they would have caught the incorrect timing when the went to dyno the machine lol.

I'm having other problems now though. When I first put the bike back together, it would only start with throttle input and it did idle a few times, but the idle was really high, like high 2000's and then it would suddenly die. I'm assuming because the front cylinder was trying to pull the rear cylinder with it. Well now both cylinders are running after I changed the rear timing 180 degrees, both get hot (no more ice cold rear header after running it for a minute lol). But the bike still idles really high, like 2800 rpms now. It has a brand new Idle Air Control Valve on it, when I installed it, I turned the key on, then off for a few seconds, then repeated that a few times. I could hear the little stepper motor on it run itself in and out when I'd do this. I'd read on the forums that is how to teach it where closed and open are. But it runs the same high idle with both the old and new IACV installed. It does have the old TPS on it. One of the shops the bike was at when I was chasing my tail around the back cylinder not running said they programmed the TPS for me to rule that out, but then they also told me they didn't have the actual BUDS software, they had some offbrand stuff without all the features and access as BUDS. So maybe my TPS actually is off.

I know the IACV is open to some degree because when I cover that port, the idle drops down to around 1500, and to rule out any intake air leaks, I covered the entire intake and this starved the engine and killed it immediately. Here is the video of it running yesterday. Running on both cylinders now, so this doesn't negate the fact the the rear cylinder timing was wrong, but there is something else wrong with the bike too and I'm not sure what it is.

Running on both cylinders at 2800 RPM, idles down to 1500 RPM if I cover the IACV port, engine dies if I completely cover the intake.

 

[BombardierBomb]

From what we know, and as you said- the IAC valve and the MAP/T sensor can be changed and will "learn", but yeah the TPS has to be set for zero/sweep by someone with BUDS, I wasn't aware of any "aftermarket" programs that could accomplish the same thing. Gotta confirm the TPS is set

 

[JBreezy]

From what we know, and as you said- the IAC valve and the MAP/T sensor can be changed and will "learn", but yeah the TPS has to be set for zero/sweep by someone with BUDS, I wasn't aware of any "aftermarket" programs that could accomplish the same thing. Gotta confirm the TPS is set

Do you think a faulty or inaccurate TPS reading could cause a high idle of 2800 RPM? Or maybe a faulty TPS reading would make the ECU tell the Idle Air Control Valve to open too much, or just be in the wrong position in general.

 

[BombardierBomb]

Right yeah those all have to dance together- MAP/T, IAC, TPS. I'd like to think you'd see a TPS code, but that may be only for actual readings out of wack or intermittent. I'm sure it thinks its working fine, it's just not set for the right sweep.

 

[JBreezy]

Right yeah those all have to dance together- MAP/T, IAC, TPS. I'd like to think you'd see a TPS code, but that may be only for actual readings out of wack or intermittent. I'm sure it thinks its working fine, it's just not set for the right sweep.

I think it's the TPS. I did some tinkering and troubleshooting last night and played with the TPS off the throttle body while it's running. I'm 99% sure all it needs is to be programmed for proper zero at the dealership.

Here's how the bike runs / responds with the TPS on and me covering / uncovering the IACV port in the throttle body.

This is how the bike runs with the TPS off of the throttle body and me manipulating it while the bike is running and you can see how it affects the idle speed. Pretty cool.

 

[JBreezy]

Don't forget to change the oil , you've had alot of unburnt fuel drizzling around slug #2 and some probably made its way past the ring(s) .

You were right. This was the oil filter after. The oil was black and runny and more full than when I had filled it up.