Can-Am ATV Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
To keep this as brief as possible, I had a loss of horsepower and bog a couple months ago that I assumed I would be able to fix fairly easily after doing a leak down test that was less than 5 psi. Since I like to screw myself, I introduced a plethora of variables along the way prior to pin pointing the actual problem. I will note that I have reached out to Mr.RPM and got nowhere, another can am guru thats a few hours away, and 4 other reputable shops near me that wont work on Can Am. I cant even beg someone to take this from me and take my money to fix it. It does not throw a code, except last night when it randomly throws "Check DPS". So I check it in BUDS and like everything else with this thing, it shows a flashing engine light in the monitoring screen, but does not show a fault, as Im watching a check engine light flash on the gauge screen.

Note: Original loss of power and reduced top end started without any recent changes to the bike. At that time it was just slip on exhaust and secondary clutch kit on 28x10 zillas.

Bike and mods:
2020 Outlander 4x4 DPS
Uni Filter, High flowing exhaust (slip on)
30"x11" zillas

Initial parts replaced/checked:
-Fuel Pump (added inline liquid filled gauge stays at 51 psi in neutral and under load, although does drop within a min to 40 psi)
-Fuel Injector
-Map/t
-Several spark plugs
-New Fuel Controller (second one), tried with no fuel controller, then for the third fuel device it now has PC5
-Adjusted valves to tighter side of spec (ran worse)
-Adjusted valves to looser side of spec (ran better than worse)

Heres where I proclaimed myself an idiot...

Before the first issue was resolved, I thought Id just go ahead and do some other mods. It has to be something simple, after all there isnt a whole lot it could be these things arent super complicated...

Variables introduced:
-Autotune module and POD300
-New "drop in" camshaft with unknown specs (to me) but advised would build peak power around 8200. (obviously provides higher lift over stock camshaft visually comparing the two : Bought cam alignment tool to eliminate that as a variable, installed at TDC with crank locked)
-Monster ECU Flash performed by Wick-It and advised timing was relatively unchanged until upper rpm range where it advanced about 2* at 6200 and marginally increased up to redline. Also raised rev limiter, I assume it wont currently make it that high..
-CVTech Primary originally set up with 1021 spring and 18 gr weights based on 3-4" oversized tires.
-STM Primary w/ 40 degree helix and gold spring using 3 shims

Note: Spark plug was initially very wet and black/ dark bronze everytime i pulled it but pulling tons of fuel has gotten it the right coloring, and only a little wet.

After changing the fuel pump and related components initially and having the same lack of power up to 6000 rpm where it basically just stayed at (38-40 mph), I installed the parts listed above, but also started questioning the clutching because my helix had significant wear where it contacts the secondary that had not ever been a noticeable issue all the times Ive had the clutches off. So I order the CVTech and it alone with the stock secondary was worse. Then I bought the STM secondary and it changed nothing except it seemed jerkier than before. I was told that the CVTech tuning with the 1021 (300/1600) and 18gr weights were way too much for my engine to overcome, so I was told to go with 1012 spring (120/1600) and 12gr weights. I didnt receive the correct weights that I ordered, so I ended up installing the 1012 spring and 14gr weights which drastically helped with engagement taking it from 3000 to 2400, but still jerky. Last night I changed weights to 16gr and it took my engagement to around 2100 and much smoother. I also changed my belt to an oem however, so my old belt may have helped alot with that it was worn out but I was avoiding replacing it while in the early stages of the tuning.

After I got the ECU back with the advanced timing and installed the cam, I had more or less the same lack of power as before, but now it was spark knocking in the upper mid to upper rpm range, as well as back firing through the intake specifically at 6400 rpms. I assumed the timing was off, double checked that, pulled cam reinstalled using alignment tool, adjusted valves to specs given with cam, reached out to Wick-It hoping they added too much timing in the flash and was told 2* at 6200 and marginally increased up to redline, then reached out to the guy that sold me the cam. I asked his thoughts on the 2* at 6200 with their highly R&D'd cam (so Im told), and he avoided the question all together so that was no help. Wick-It suggested installing the stock cam and go from there as well as requesting what my injector duty cycle was at part throttle. He also made the suggestion to set my target AFR in the high 14s to 15.1 with the new cam and try that? Of course my short ride last night I forget to data log the ride :/, but I couldnt do much anyway still breaking in the new belt and it was 11:30pm when I got it all together.

Before I took it for a ride I adjusted the valves from the spec I was given (.006/.008 to .010 for both). Couldnt tell if that made a difference I kept it under 5k rpm because of the belt, but it has ran alot better previously when it was on the looser side of the range. Reset TPS in BUDS as piece of mind after lubing the throttle cable and calibrated TPS in PC5. Also tested the O2 sensor to make sure it was operating normally. According to the chart for my elevation it was good and functioning normally.

Pertinent information:
Since installing the new cam and listed parts, it wants to stay very rich to the point Im pulling tons of fuel to keep it in the low 12s. I even went back to a base stock 450 map from dynojet rather than the map I was sent to use with the cam and had been trying to work with, and had to go -30 in the fuel table at 1250/1500 for 0 and 2% column just to get it to 11.8-12.1 range. The first 1/4 mile or so at 15-20% throttle it was 12.5-13.5 steady, then after that was staying around 10.5-11 at the same throttle positions. I ran it last night without the UNI filter and the stock one back in and no change in AFRs. The airbox has no obstructions I removed it and cleaned it completely, the exhaust is free flowing doesnt have spark arrestor but I even pulled it and there are no obstructions, battery voltage is good. Im really confused why these things run so lean from the factory, but now I cant take enough fuel out of it to keep it within the target range and a cleaned/ calibrated tb, new map/t, and upsized intake piping with highflow air filter. I checked for possible leaks around the connections to the airbox and throttle body with no luck and did a leak down last night that netted 2%. I did drain all of the gas because I started questioning whether I actually put 93 in it last time or if it was my truck I put it in (gas crisis from a couple weeks ago left all the stations with premium only). I filled it with 93 prior to riding but didnt get the RPMs high enough to see if it was spark knocking still and just took it easy.

I know thats alot of information kind of scattered around, but Im looking for suggestions, ideas, or any comments really that might help. This thing has been going on 3 months and has really deflated me. With all the time and money I put in it I couldve just done the motor swap, but I kinda wanted to see how it would hold up against other bikes with some work done to the stock motor, drivetrain and suspension.

Questions:
-Why is it so hell bent on running RICH?
-Thoughts on the 2* at 6200 rpm and spark knocking/ backfiring through intake?
-Im almost certain its out of time but how do I prove this?
-Suggestions with the clutching?
-Literally any suggestions related to any part of the sadness written above.

Just as an FYI, its basically ready to be put back together if I can actually get it to run right. Built the subframe for fender supports after deleting the stock rack and fab'd the new supports for the XMR Renegade rear bumper. I also have a new y pipe to fab up Im slightly altering the exhaust tips with a larger diameter. It will be very similar to the current set up when finished. Elkas finally showed up too, ordered them when I start working on this initially months ago.
102958

102959
 

·
Registered
2015 Outlander XMR 650
Joined
·
4,568 Posts
Cute kid!

As much as it pains me to say it, I can't help but recommend returning the bike to "stock", or thereabouts, for the purpose of diagnosis/troubleshooting. This all started with it not performing up to even what we'd consider "factory" standards, outta the blue. That needs to be resolved, in my mind, before you then further proceed to eek out the power and try to maximize its potential.

We could really only attribute that kind of bog and refusal to tach out, on two things: MAP/T sensor, or fuel pump. While that drop-off to 40 psi might be normal, as injector pulse width increases, I don't like it. I can't help but think that pump should be able to maintain 51psi all the time anywhere. Have you purchased a spanking new MAP/T sensor?
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Cute kid!

As much as it pains me to say it, I can't help but recommend returning the bike to "stock", or thereabouts, for the purpose of diagnosis/troubleshooting. This all started with it not performing up to even what we'd consider "factory" standards, outta the blue. That needs to be resolved, in my mind, before you then further proceed to eek out the power and try to maximize its potential.

We could really only attribute that kind of bog and refusal to tach out, on two things: MAP/T sensor, or fuel pump. While that drop-off to 40 psi might be normal, as injector pulse width increases, I don't like it. I can't help but think that pump should be able to maintain 51psi all the time anywhere. Have you purchased a spanking new MAP/T sensor?
Im going to order a new map/t today, although what would the odds be that I bought a used one that was tested from a reputable source and that one be bad as well? It has to be something silly like that though I should have run out of options by now. What would I be looking at for that 10 psi drop after its shut off? I will put the stock cam back in as well and go from there. Ill need to reach out to wick-it to see about sending the ecu back off to them for the timing to be reset to stock to remove that part of the equation, but wondering how that process goes for them to return to stock and then if i wanted advance the timing again. Obviously ill reach out to them to see how they handle a scenario like that bc I cant pay reflash prices 3 times :/ Anyway, you're right about returning to stock and going from there Ive been putting it off hoping I found a resolution.
 

·
Registered
2015 Outlander XMR 650
Joined
·
4,568 Posts
Yeah no I'm right there with you, the odds of a second sensor arriving in no better shape than the one you're taking off, are pretty infinitesimal, but at this point, it was used, and it's just a few more bucks invested on top of everything else, I think it's money "well spent"

If the pump drops off only after shutoff, then that's normal. I was reading that it would drop after extended WOT.

If at all possible, instead of sending the ECM back for yet another reflash, see if you could just borrow a stock one from someone, just for testing purposes. Does your bike have the DESS key?
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It does not have the DESS key but I dont know anyone personally that has a 450. I may try to reach out to someone local on one of the can am pages and offer them access to BUDS if or when they may need for a short term borrow of their ECM. Thats a good idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BombardierBomb

·
Registered
2015 Outlander XMR 650
Joined
·
4,568 Posts
That makes it even easier, then. You wouldn't need the matching key, just an ECM.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HalfFull17

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,215 Posts
Like said above return it all to stock and fix the main issue first, have the ecm flashed back to stock. If the fuel pump cannot keep a steady 51/52 psi under all throttle then that's where u start

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Unfortunately flashing back to stock isn’t as easy as it would seem. I had to ship it to Louisiana to have it flashed so I’m asking around now trying to find someone that can lend theirs for an hr so it’s not a costly ordeal. The rest of the stuff I’m going to take back to stock as much as I can and go from there. Going to do a lot of testing tonight. The fuel pressure only leaks down when it’s shut off, I just thought it should maintain pressure longer than it does once to motor is shut down. It holds 51 under all loads
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
570 Posts
I've said this many times. Want more power buy a bigger machine. Lots and lots of engineering time with lots and lots of resources make these machines run right. Just buying hop up components that try to be everything to everybody/machine is asking for headaches. Then using the land based machines like its a boat or a submarine, is well... I've said it to many times already.
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I didn’t care about giving it more power really. I was just more interested in how the power came in and the curve along with higher peak power. So not so much in the extra power, but where the power was. I could’ve easily spent 12+ grand on a 850 or 1000, but I like the body of the 450/570 🤷🏻‍♂️ and I wouldn’t have a very unique quad to ride I’d have what goober smooch up the street that knows nothing about his quad rides. I’m motor swapping eventually, could’ve been sooner had I not decided to see what I could do with this for now. You can keep saying it maybe it’ll catch on, my wife will agree with you for all the hours I’ve got in this thing. I’d be miserable with a stock quad I spent double on tho soooo…I dont disagree with your logic tho and might agree if I wasn’t the way I am.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MontanaCanAm

·
Registered
Joined
·
978 Posts
Have you checked to make sure flywheel hasn't spun on crank? Also check valve springs just make sure one isn't broken. I know you checked leakdown, but I was working on an 800 rzr once and it would run perfect at times then it would run awful a few seconds later. I had checked everything and couldn't find anything wrong. Including leakdown check which was good and the all to normal oil pressure relief valve. I finally ordered ecu and tried that but didn't help any. The local polaris dealer had quoted him 5000 grand or so for a new motor before I started on it. I pulled valve cover off and everything looked great. So I rechecked everything again and still found nothing. So I pull the valve cover once again to inspect things a bit closer and since the 800 is a push rod motor and you can't see the cam I thought I would see if it had maybe ate a cam lobe. Well as I was watching the valves move I noticed one of the springs looked funny. Sure enough it had a broken valve spring. It was pretty hard to notice unless you looked from the right angle.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: MontanaCanAm

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,215 Posts
Unfortunately flashing back to stock isn’t as easy as it would seem. I had to ship it to Louisiana to have it flashed so I’m asking around now trying to find someone that can lend theirs for an hr so it’s not a costly ordeal. The rest of the stuff I’m going to take back to stock as much as I can and go from there. Going to do a lot of testing tonight. The fuel pressure only leaks down when it’s shut off, I just thought it should maintain pressure longer than it does once to motor is shut down. It holds 51 under all loads
Local dealer should be able to flash it back to factory

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Have you checked to make sure flywheel hasn't spun on crank? Also check valve springs just make sure one isn't broken. I know you checked leakdown, but I was working on an 800 rzr once and it would run perfect at times then it would run awful a few seconds later. I had checked everything and couldn't find anything wrong. Including leakdown check which was good and the all to normal oil pressure relief valve. I finally ordered ecu and tried that but didn't help any. The local polaris dealer had quoted him 5000 grand or so for a new motor before I started on it. I pulled valve cover off and everything looked great. So I rechecked everything again and still found nothing. So I pull the valve cover once again to inspect things a bit closer and since the 800 is a push rod motor and you can't see the cam I thought I would see if it had maybe ate a cam lobe. Well as I was watching the valves move I noticed one of the springs looked funny. Sure enough it had a broken valve spring. It was pretty hard to notice unless you looked from the right angle.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
[/QUOTE

I’ve looked for answers about where the timing mark should be located within the cam sensor hole. Mines always been on the very right edge of the hole and not centered. I searched and searched to find out if the single cylinders are supposed to be that way and not centered but like everything else can’t find anything. I’ve given that a lot of thought though.

Ive had at the very least a massive breakthrough, all relative to my luck the past 3 months. I got home today pulled the custom grind cam, installed the stock cam, and adjusted valves on loose end of spec (every time I’ve gone tighter end of spec with them it runs terrible). Last night I reverted back to stock map to see and with the grind cam it still had to pull fuel. Well I put everything back together and fire it up and it’s too lean to stay running. Since I was pushed back in the driveway and not at the laptop/ flat screen where I hook it up, I adjusted the fuel in the POD300 from -20 where it was from last night, to +5 in idle range. Also I went up to +10 in mid and since I’m still in break in period for belt didn’t mess with upper range. It fired and after a little tweaking idled at 14 and road up the road riding 6 miles probably. Got home and accepted trims in the PC5 tables to mess with tomorrow. It ran great as far as I pushed it which I eventually got curious and lightly pushed it up to 7k easing into it really slow. I stayed below 40-45% throttle position until I had about 5 miles on the belt but it didn’t seem like it was going to hit upper 7s easily but could be wrong. I think tomorrow I’m going to swap the 1012 spring for the 1017 and keep the 16gr weights and just see what it does. I’m shooting blindly there tho. Im incredibly happy with the first promising results in months. Idk what the hell is going on with that other cam but there was any spark knock or backfiring in the intake at 6400!
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Local dealer should be able to flash it back to factory

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
I didn’t know they could or would, but that still leaves me erasing a flash I just paid $450 for a couple weeks ago. Unless they can replace the monster flash if I need them to I’m not certain how that works?
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
This baffles me...I did nothing but swap the cam last night and just to get it to idle I had to adjust the fuel at idle from -20 to +5 using the same map. Question related to the cam. What in the world would cause the aftermarket cam to create symptoms of being out of time using the same map and same conditions minus the cam swap and run so rich it couldnt lean out enough, then stock cam needs +25 at idle? The spark knocking and backfiring through the intake too? I asked that question to the guy that I got the cam from because I want to work toward making the cam work rather than give up on it. His response was idk, send it back for a refund. So much for all the R&D on the 450 talk I got prior to not getting any support throughout this process. Before I send it back its really bugging me because it makes no sense that it was doing what it was doing. Only changing the cam and setting the valves back to roughly the same spec and I had to take the fuel at idle from -20 to +5 and it ran so much better. I couldnt get on it hard because of the new belt but after 6 miles i did slowly take it up to 6700 and gave it about 75% throttle slowly with no backfire or spark knock. Im super happy about the results but disappointed I cant get the new cam to run and give me the higher peak and better curve. Without the support to trouble shoot it from the guys that developed the profile Im dead in the water though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
570 Posts
@HalfFull17, it does sound like you are a skilled mechanic, and somewhat enjoying all this. Makes me think for the lesser or no skilled, it must be a nightmare going thru what you are describing. Good Luck!
 

·
Registered
2015 Outlander XMR 650
Joined
·
4,568 Posts
That's a really interesting approach to his business, that cam guy. Anyone we know? Doesn't seem to care about the product, after he's got your money. Idk, strange way to operate....

If the cam lobes were ground out of time with the gear, it'd give all kinds of weird running issues, if it ran at all. Obviously, it does, so it must not be that bad out, mechanically, but I wonder if that's what's going on here. Mechanically the cam gear and chain are in time, but the lobes are "off". I haven't the foggiest idea how you'd go about checking that tho
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
978 Posts
That's a really interesting approach to his business, that cam guy. Anyone we know? Doesn't seem to care about the product, after he's got your money. Idk, strange way to operate....

If the cam lobes were ground out of time with the gear, it'd give all kinds of weird running issues, if it ran at all. Obviously, it does, so it must not be that bad out, mechanically, but I wonder if that's what's going on here. Mechanically the cam gear and chain are in time, but the lobes are "off". I haven't the foggiest idea how you'd go about checking that tho
Maybe compare to stock?

I want you to pull flywheel cover and pull flywheel and make sure it didn't shear the key. Or at least stick a wire down spark plug hole and see if tdc line on flywheel seems to match with actual piston tdc.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Maybe compare to stock?

I want you to pull flywheel cover and pull flywheel and make sure it didn't shear the key. Or at least stick a wire down spark plug hole and see if tdc line on flywheel seems to match with actual piston tdc.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I’ll take a pic shortly and show where the mark lines up. It’s not centered but offset the the right most edge of the hole at actual TDC
 

·
Registered
2020 Outlander 450
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
That's a really interesting approach to his business, that cam guy. Anyone we know? Doesn't seem to care about the product, after he's got your money. Idk, strange way to operate....

If the cam lobes were ground out of time with the gear, it'd give all kinds of weird running issues, if it ran at all. Obviously, it does, so it must not be that bad out, mechanically, but I wonder if that's what's going on here. Mechanically the cam gear and chain are in time, but the lobes are "off". I haven't the foggiest idea how you'd go about checking that tho
From the reputation he has from the people I’ve talked to around here he’s THE guy from what everyone says. He does it on the side but has a legit company name he operates under and evidently races can ams. One of the bigger known and reputable shops near me said they were very backed up and don’t work on can am but they have a guy 3 hrs away who is “the only guy” I would want working on it. Well guess who that was lol. Hell I even offered to pay him for his time if he could troubleshoot it with me and quit pencil whipping vague responses that ignored the bulk of my question he did not acknowledge that message either 🙄 we mainly communicated they fb messenger aside from the initial phone call that was 35/40 min where he suggested doing the cam, dyno tune, flash etc. so I bought the PC5 a week after buying the BOM controller and it was all down pretty frustrating after that. Maybe I’ve just got one of those faces he didn’t want to deal with haha
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top