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2020 Outlander 450
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have done a ton of searching and cant find any info that is relevant to 2020, as most threads that pull up are pre 2013 for some reason. I think I have a fuel issue, but havent heard of any known issues with 2020 and fuel pump. It has been intermittently losing power for a month. I assume it was the belt slipping initially but it wouldnt build RPMs so I kind of ruled that out. I have not sank it or even had it in water over the footboards in 6 months and have filled up with new gas from different gas stations and hasnt fixed the issue. Last time I rode it the power was there and over the weekend I installed my CVTech primary and reinstalled the stock secondary spring with a gates belt (previously running a WKP 32" tire spring). I was anxious to see what a difference it made and it would barely sling dirt in low gear I was back to having no power, not building rpms, and just a bogging feeling. Wouldnt get over 35 mph and didnt get there in a hurry. The primary and secondary are working fine the belt rides to the top of the primary and secondary is functioning normally. I have not checked fuel pressure yet I didnt have time to keep messing with it last night and have a ton of work to finish up before our ride next weekend so Ive got to diagnose this thing quick in the event I need to order parts. Mods are free flowing custom exhaust from head pipe back, uni filter w/ 2" snorkel riser from the air box (just re-did the snorkel risers and filter and had same symptoms before and after), and attitude fuel controller (adjustments adding fuel have not helped). Ill list the symptoms and observations first.

2020 Outlander 450 DPS

-Noticeable power loss to 50% or less down low, then wont build rpms at all they just slowly rise until 30-35 mph and I'm topped out. (Not sure of RPM, my guages werent in last night when I tested it out and cant remember what they were last time)
-Occasionally when I take off from a stop it bogs and dies but has always had that ridiculous bog upon blip of the throttle nonsense since it was new. It just didnt shut down when it bogged until this started. It will start right back up however.
-Two different times it made the machine vibrate pretty noticeably in the foot board area while limping it home
-Is not throwing a code
-after a wot run which had no power and about 30 sec of idle getting it back to my shop the plug was whiteish grey/ whiteish grey pink in color
-Just re-ran snorkels so it is clean and obstruction free, no water or dirt/ debris from inlet to air box.
-Oil level is dead on

I guess its possible that Ive had bad gas the last two tanks. The last few months all Ive done is work on my house to sell, sell and move, and work on the new place, so it gets ridden a few times a week but theyre 5 to 10 minute rides ( I ride it to the store alot). Being so it takes a month to go through a tank at the rate ive been riding it. When I do ride it, I ride it hard it doesnt get babied at all except when its lost power and I baby it home. Im going to empty the tank and fill up with non ethanol from a reputable gas station and grab a can of sea foam on the way home, but if anyone has any knowledge of issues or common diagnoses based on the symptoms that would be great. I was barely going to have time to finish it up after going to 30s on no lift and getting them to clear, so this is probably going to kill my ride this weekend I desperately needed after the last few months going non stop and doing nothing but work.

I appreciate any input!
 

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Maybe bad injectors? It's a bit of a pain but you could pull them and see if they're shooting properly. I'm not sure if I missed it but the older machines were very well known to develop fuel pump issues and would run like crap when the PSI dropped below 50 so that might be something worth checking as a fuel pressure gauge is relatively inexpensive and nice to have for future troubleshooting.
 

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I have done a ton of searching and cant find any info that is relevant to 2020, as most threads that pull up are pre 2013 for some reason. I think I have a fuel issue, but havent heard of any known issues with 2020 and fuel pump. It has been intermittently losing power for a month. I assume it was the belt slipping initially but it wouldnt build RPMs so I kind of ruled that out. I have not sank it or even had it in water over the footboards in 6 months and have filled up with new gas from different gas stations and hasnt fixed the issue. Last time I rode it the power was there and over the weekend I installed my CVTech primary and reinstalled the stock secondary spring with a gates belt (previously running a WKP 32" tire spring). I was anxious to see what a difference it made and it would barely sling dirt in low gear I was back to having no power, not building rpms, and just a bogging feeling. Wouldnt get over 35 mph and didnt get there in a hurry. The primary and secondary are working fine the belt rides to the top of the primary and secondary is functioning normally. I have not checked fuel pressure yet I didnt have time to keep messing with it last night and have a ton of work to finish up before our ride next weekend so Ive got to diagnose this thing quick in the event I need to order parts. Mods are free flowing custom exhaust from head pipe back, uni filter w/ 2" snorkel riser from the air box (just re-did the snorkel risers and filter and had same symptoms before and after), and attitude fuel controller (adjustments adding fuel have not helped). Ill list the symptoms and observations first.

2020 Outlander 450 DPS

-Noticeable power loss to 50% or less down low, then wont build rpms at all they just slowly rise until 30-35 mph and I'm topped out. (Not sure of RPM, my guages werent in last night when I tested it out and cant remember what they were last time)
-Occasionally when I take off from a stop it bogs and dies but has always had that ridiculous bog upon blip of the throttle nonsense since it was new. It just didnt shut down when it bogged until this started. It will start right back up however.
-Two different times it made the machine vibrate pretty noticeably in the foot board area while limping it home
-Is not throwing a code
-after a wot run which had no power and about 30 sec of idle getting it back to my shop the plug was whiteish grey/ whiteish grey pink in color
-Just re-ran snorkels so it is clean and obstruction free, no water or dirt/ debris from inlet to air box.
-Oil level is dead on

I guess its possible that Ive had bad gas the last two tanks. The last few months all Ive done is work on my house to sell, sell and move, and work on the new place, so it gets ridden a few times a week but theyre 5 to 10 minute rides ( I ride it to the store alot). Being so it takes a month to go through a tank at the rate ive been riding it. When I do ride it, I ride it hard it doesnt get babied at all except when its lost power and I baby it home. Im going to empty the tank and fill up with non ethanol from a reputable gas station and grab a can of sea foam on the way home, but if anyone has any knowledge of issues or common diagnoses based on the symptoms that would be great. I was barely going to have time to finish it up after going to 30s on no lift and getting them to clear, so this is probably going to kill my ride this weekend I desperately needed after the last few months going non stop and doing nothing but work.

I appreciate any input!
I had trouble before similar to what your going through I had a hmf fuel programer I took it off and the bike ran fine after that..try taking the programer off see what happens.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Maybe bad injectors? It's a bit of a pain but you could pull them and see if they're shooting properly. I'm not sure if I missed it but the older machines were very well known to develop fuel pump issues and would run like crap when the PSI dropped below 50 so that might be something worth checking as a fuel pressure gauge is relatively inexpensive and nice to have for future troubleshooting.
Thats my first move to check the fuel pressure this afternoon. Mine is a 2020 and like you said Ive seen alot of issues with the 13 and older bikes with fuel pump but nothing after that really. Ive tried wording searches numerous ways but havent been able to find any answers. Ill probably pull injectors too, I had a GSXR 1000 a few years ago that wouldnt run when I bought it but it had been sitting a while. It was a 2006 with 4000 miles on it so i pulsed carb cleaner through the injectors off a 9v battery and it ran great. This one has never sat longer than a week so I wouldnt think thats it but I guess it could be if it got trash in the fuel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I had trouble before similar to what your going through I had a hmf fuel programer I took it off and the bike ran fine after that..try taking the programer off see what happens.
I was just texting my dad about that and wondering if the controller could be a potential problem. I added fuel and lowered the transition ranges but it didnt help or seem to have any change in performance at all and thought it could potentially be faulty. With the exhaust 2" piping to air box and uni filter I would it would be ridiculously lean once removed, but I guess I would quickly find out if that were the culprit and could go from there without riding it long enough to hurt it. Anyone have any experience with a 450 with a power commander? Im pretty sure nobody has any maps for it, but does it still allow it to be tuned correctly and obtain optimal AF ratio? Id rather not have to take it to have it tuned, especially since were talking about a 450. I was hoping to avoid that until I did the motor swap, or I guess I could just go back with another controller.
 

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I was just texting my dad about that and wondering if the controller could be a potential problem. I added fuel and lowered the transition ranges but it didnt help or seem to have any change in performance at all and thought it could potentially be faulty. With the exhaust 2" piping to air box and uni filter I would it would be ridiculously lean once removed, but I guess I would quickly find out if that were the culprit and could go from there without riding it long enough to hurt it. Anyone have any experience with a 450 with a power commander? Im pretty sure nobody has any maps for it, but does it still allow it to be tuned correctly and obtain optimal AF ratio? Id rather not have to take it to have it tuned, especially since were talking about a 450. I was hoping to avoid that until I did the motor swap, or I guess I could just go back with another controller.
I found with having problems with my bike I found it best to start with simple easy possible fixes first to narrow down the problem. But yes I recommend taking that tuner off it won't hurt the bike to see if it's the culprit ..I've never heard of them and it looks like my hmf one that was no good if I remember correctly it was faulty then I ordered the power commander.

I went to power commander after the hmf .. and yes the map problem the power commander worked good I was looking for more specific tunning.
I took it off and went with monster fuel injection and wow the bike came alive! With superb support from them I highly recommend them! I will put these on all my bikes! ECU Flash | Monster Fuel Injection
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I found with having problems with my bike I found it best to start with simple easy possible fixes first to narrow down the problem. But yes I recommend taking that tuner off it won't hurt the bike to see if it's the culprit ..I've never heard of them and it looks like my hmf one that was no good if I remember correctly it was faulty then I ordered the power commander.

I went to power commander after the hmf .. and yes the map problem the power commander worked good I was looking for more specific tunning.
I took it off and went with monster fuel injection and wow the bike came alive! With superb support from them I highly recommend them! I will put these on all my bikes! ECU Flash | Monster Fuel Injection
Thanks, I just shot them an email for additional info since there isnt much on their site.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Update: i checked the fuel pressure and it’s around 49-50 psi. Upon closer inspection the controller isn’t sealed anymore the grommet at the wires was tilted so I wiggled it and it popped right out. I also drained the tank and all the gas was clean so I just went to get more fuel and some sea foam for good measure and I’m going to unplug the controller. I’m going with a flash over another controller so I can remove/raise the limiters, lower fan set points, etc. I’m pretty confident it’s the controller at this point
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Updating to see if I can get anymore ideas. I changed to a new BOM fuel controller and took the exhaust tips off and pulled the baffle insert out of the muffler. It was ridiculously clean no black carbon at all, which goes in line with the spark plug appearing to burn very lean. Prior to this issue I wasnt over heating or having any codes come up and I had the first controller on it for 9 months before this problem started. Nothing changed for this to occur but since Ive checked exhaust for obstructions, checked intake and installed uni filter, checked fuel pressure a second time it looked to be 51-52 psi in all throttle positions. I externally cleaned the radiator last night really well and went down the road and it feels like 3/4 power until 4000 rpms then sluggish 50% power to 5500 where it flatlines at 38/39 mph and slowly creeps up to 5800 rpms and maybe hits 42. All I keep hearing is tire size, clutches, thats what you get with a 450 and big tires...thats not it. It has a new primary and gates belt with no change. Been running 28x10s since 5 miles on it and 3/4 of that time with a 32" tire kit. The thing bogs and I believe runs out of fuel. Im going to check injector tonight along with all the vent hoses and take a look at the valve clearances. Everything Ive looked at so far has been clean though. It has around 28 hours and 130 miles on it and has never sat more than 3 or 4 days without being ran. Ideas on what else to check?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Also meant to add that in neutral it revs slower than normal and hits rev limiter right at 7000 rpms.
 

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Did you try running the bike between fuel controllers? No fuel controller at all, in other words?

I can't see your MAP/T sensor being faulty on that new a machine, but it can't hurt to pull it and just check for any oily vapor film or dirt on it
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Did you try running the bike between fuel controllers? No fuel controller at all, in other words?

I can't see your MAP/T sensor being faulty on that new a machine, but it can't hurt to pull it and just check for any oily vapor film or dirt on it
I did not and it was my intention to try that, but Jeff got me the new controller in 2 days so I just installed the new one. I figured what are the odds two are bad so I kind of ruled that out. Should I still try that?
 

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I'm right there with you, the odds don't stack up, but wth could it hurt just to give it a try, right? Free and easy to try it/rule that out.

You mentioning that adding fuel via tuner not helping, has me kinda looking at that MAP/T real close. All those blinky boxes do is fool that sensor into thinking theres more or less air coming in than there actually is, it's then responsible for lengthening or shortening the injector pulse width. If it's sluggish or dirty or whatever, no amount of you twisting knobs or pushing buttons on the tuner will do anything. They're not terribly expensive are they?
 

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Updating to see if I can get anymore ideas. I changed to a new BOM fuel controller and took the exhaust tips off and pulled the baffle insert out of the muffler. It was ridiculously clean no black carbon at all, which goes in line with the spark plug appearing to burn very lean. Prior to this issue I wasnt over heating or having any codes come up and I had the first controller on it for 9 months before this problem started. Nothing changed for this to occur but since Ive checked exhaust for obstructions, checked intake and installed uni filter, checked fuel pressure a second time it looked to be 51-52 psi in all throttle positions. I externally cleaned the radiator last night really well and went down the road and it feels like 3/4 power until 4000 rpms then sluggish 50% power to 5500 where it flatlines at 38/39 mph and slowly creeps up to 5800 rpms and maybe hits 42. All I keep hearing is tire size, clutches, thats what you get with a 450 and big tires...thats not it. It has a new primary and gates belt with no change. Been running 28x10s since 5 miles on it and 3/4 of that time with a 32" tire kit. The thing bogs and I believe runs out of fuel. Im going to check injector tonight along with all the vent hoses and take a look at the valve clearances. Everything Ive looked at so far has been clean though. It has around 28 hours and 130 miles on it and has never sat more than 3 or 4 days without being ran. Ideas on what else to check?
Does it sound like you are running on one cylinder when it starts bogging?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The 450 is just a single cylinder
Yep just the single but what i notice when I hit the throttle and it "bogs", is a sound that literally sounds like the definition of a bog in my mind. its hard to explain but just goes blahhhhhh. Its really noticeable because of the snorkel that is 2" all the way to the airbox. The new controller cost me $300 to my door and Jeff obviously is renowned for setting the parameters on these things, but like you said I really think I have an issue with fuel supply aside from the blinky box. Like you keep swinging and missing but theres nobody throwing you balls to even hit. I dont know if it is because the ECU senses a fault that is limiting fuel and rev limiter, or if the lack of fuel is what is causing my problems. I thought off the top of my head rev limits were set to 8000 on mine ill have to look again, but if it is 8000 then the computer has changed the limit to 7000 and makes me lean toward computer issue, but i could be way off.
 

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Well from what I'm reading, the bike is starving for fuel. Can't make power/rpm without fuel. The spark plug and exhaust seem to backup that hunch. You're trying to enrich the mixture via tuner not having an effect, I can only really attribute to the MAP/T just not doing its job 100%

idk, just throwing that out there
 
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Does it sound like you are running on one cylinder when it starts bogging?
I
Yep just the single but what i notice when I hit the throttle and it "bogs", is a sound that literally sounds like the definition of a bog in my mind. its hard to explain but just goes blahhhhhh. Its really noticeable because of the snorkel that is 2" all the way to the airbox. The new controller cost me $300 to my door and Jeff obviously is renowned for setting the parameters on these things, but like you said I really think I have an issue with fuel supply aside from the blinky box. Like you keep swinging and missing but theres nobody throwing you balls to even hit. I dont know if it is because the ECU senses a fault that is limiting fuel and rev limiter, or if the lack of fuel is what is causing my problems. I thought off the top of my head rev limits were set to 8000 on mine ill have to look again, but if it is 8000 then the computer has changed the limit to 7000 and makes me lean toward computer issue, but i could be way off.
Yep just the single but what i notice when I hit the throttle and it "bogs", is a sound that literally sounds like the definition of a bog in my mind. its hard to explain but just goes blahhhhhh. Its really noticeable because of the snorkel that is 2" all the way to the airbox. The new controller cost me $300 to my door and Jeff obviously is renowned for setting the parameters on these things, but like you said I really think I have an issue with fuel supply aside from the blinky box. Like you keep swinging and missing but theres nobody throwing you balls to even hit. I dont know if it is because the ECU senses a fault that is limiting fuel and rev limiter, or if the lack of fuel is what is causing my problems. I thought off the top of my head rev limits were set to 8000 on mine ill have to look again, but if it is 8000 then the computer has changed the limit to 7000 and makes me lean toward computer issue, but i could be way off.
Try taking tunner off see what happens simple and easy to try and take some Guess work out.. and go from there at least you can strike it of the list.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I

Try taking tunner off see what happens simple and easy to try and take some Guess work out.. and go from there at least you can strike it of the list.
Ill check out the MAP/T and run it with the controller off. At this point Im not going to rule it out just because I think its highly unlikely. If it did run like it should with the controller off, what would that even be a result of? The ECU gone bad?
 

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Ill check out the MAP/T and run it with the controller off. At this point Im not going to rule it out just because I think its highly unlikely. If it did run like it should with the controller off, what would that even be a result of? The ECU gone bad?
does the engine sound fine other then bogging when on the throttle? If the ecu figures something wrong it will retard your timing and not allow full throttle ..not adjust your fuel from my understanding ..that being said I had similar symptoms on my bike but being I have two cylinders it was a little different but my main issue ended up being a bad ingintion coil wich from time time while riding especially under heavy load would miss fire in cylinder 2...wich the only way to test it was to swap it .... Also it didn't through code on dash from the misfire

So of you do what your saying check out your mapt and turn the controller off you'll be back to stock ecu settings correct?
If it runs fine back to normal that means there's something wrong with the tuner it self or the tune.. if no change in performance..
Check compression that will tell you about your valves or possible another issue in top end with out tearing it down...
If compression checks out
Valves good .

Now you run a after market belt it may be possible it'd a generic size not actually made to specifications for canam ..I personally have tried after markets but no success I recommend staying with the can am belts as I find them the best

if you wanted a better belt I went with the maverick belt it's higher temp( because of snorkels) rating and better quality then stock belt .(280-364) is the belt number..

If not before you tare the injectors out .. have you swamped this bike? Did get dirt in the tank.. one way to clog injectors would be to swamp it putting debree down the exhaust to your jugs this letting in crud.. it's hard to do that from the fuel tank since there is a fuel filter.. wich if there was junk in the tank could clog the filter..

I'm tryin lol keep posting your findings we'll get the gremlin..
 
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