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2020 Outlander 450
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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
does the engine sound fine other then bogging when on the throttle? If the ecu figures something wrong it will retard your timing and not allow full throttle ..not adjust your fuel from my understanding ..that being said I had similar symptoms on my bike but being I have two cylinders it was a little different but my main issue ended up being a bad ingintion coil wich from time time while riding especially under heavy load would miss fire in cylinder 2...wich the only way to test it was to swap it .... Also it didn't through code on dash from the misfire

So of you do what your saying check out your mapt and turn the controller off you'll be back to stock ecu settings correct?
If it runs fine back to normal that means there's something wrong with the tuner it self or the tune.. if no change in performance..
Check compression that will tell you about your valves or possible another issue in top end with out tearing it down...
If compression checks out
Valves good .

Now you run a after market belt it may be possible it'd a generic size not actually made to specifications for canam ..I personally have tried after markets but no success I recommend staying with the can am belts as I find them the best

if you wanted a better belt I went with the maverick belt it's higher temp( because of snorkels) rating and better quality then stock belt .(280-364) is the belt number..

If not before you tare the injectors out .. have you swamped this bike? Did get dirt in the tank.. one way to clog injectors would be to swamp it putting debree down the exhaust to your jugs this letting in crud.. it's hard to do that from the fuel tank since there is a fuel filter.. wich if there was junk in the tank could clog the filter..

I'm tryin lol keep posting your findings we'll get the gremlin..
Im running the Gates G Force belt now, but this problem began prior to putting that belt on and has continued. it was the same dimensionally I checked it prior to swapping. Ill check compression tonight as well. I really dont think the tuner is what is doing it seems like they would have different symptoms if both were bad or atleast not identical, especially since all it does is alter the parameters of the stock map. Going to try it anyway though. I had a thought earlier that I had forgotten about in detail and seems promising. I had a 2006 GSXR 1000 I bought in 2015 with only 3500 miles so it sat around alot. 2 weeks after I bought it I lost all top end power over 8 or 9k rpms or something like that, so I pulled the injectors and cleaned them out and it ran flawlessly the rest of the time I had it after that. It didnt throw a code and it had the exact same sypmtoms I am having now. Im hoping that will be the fix because after that Im afraid it is ECU related or it somehow jumped time.

I drained the tank and it looked clean as can be. Ive never swamped it aside from the CVT housing which is now snorkeled, but I guess even the smallest debris can have a drastic effect on the one and only injector. Ill report back with findings once I get home. I appreciate the thought you're putting into this.
 

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If the ecu figures something wrong it will retard your timing and not allow full throttle
These bikes, well, the ATVs at least, don't have knock sensors or VVT or any of that; the timing map is fixed, non-adjustable. ECM can not do anything to timing.

Ill check out the MAP/T and run it with the controller off. At this point Im not going to rule it out just because I think its highly unlikely. If it did run like it should with the controller off, what would that even be a result of? The ECU gone bad?
To take a step back and "start from the top", so to speak- you've verified fuel system pressure. We know the EFI bikes don't care about snorkels like a carb'd bike would. Starting to kinda narrow down the culprits. I believe if you had any internal ECU issues, you'd get weird codes and drivability issues, if the bike ran at all, and I'm just not aware of many internal failures of these things, they tend to hold up pretty well, so I'm overlooking it.

If it's a power generation issue, and not a power delivery issue, clutches/belt/tires, that's all overlooked as well.

Dirty MAP/T sensor should theoretically throw a code, but not guaranteed. When's the last time you changed the spark plug? Cleaning the injector is perhaps the final thing I can think of. If your CPS were intermittent you should get a no spark or miss condition, not a bog exactly.
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
These bikes, well, the ATVs at least, don't have knock sensors or VVT or any of that; the timing map is fixed, non-adjustable. ECM can not do anything to timing.



To take a step back and "start from the top", so to speak- you've verified fuel system pressure. We know the EFI bikes don't care about snorkels like a carb'd bike would. Starting to kinda narrow down the culprits. I believe if you had any internal ECU issues, you'd get weird codes and drivability issues, if the bike ran at all, and I'm just not aware of many internal failures of these things, they tend to hold up pretty well, so I'm overlooking it.

If it's a power generation issue, and not a power delivery issue, clutches/belt/tires, that's all overlooked as well.

Dirty MAP/T sensor should theoretically throw a code, but not guaranteed. When's the last time you changed the spark plug? Cleaning the injector is perhaps the final thing I can think of. If your CPS were intermittent you should get a no spark or miss condition, not a bog exactly.
I have not changed the spark plug yet. I did pull it and it had very clearly been burning lean and it had spark, so I havent messed with it and especially ruled it out after looking at how clean the exhaust baffle was. the stainless was about the same color as the spark plug oddly enough. I was going to buy one last night and evidentially autoparts stores dont carry them? I specified the NGK part number and was told they couldnt even order them. The whole not throwing a code thing is what is throwing me off but like i said, neither did that 1000 so im crossing fingers and eyes thats what it is. Im leaving work now and headed home to start digging into it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Pulled the controller same result. I did put it In low and just kept on it and and finally it did hit then hit the limiter but took a long time. What are the compression test numbers supposed to be? I got a reading and about to do a leak down on it after I pull the front rack and plastic. I cant find the numbers anywhere for a 450. I cleaned the injector it pulsed as it should I’m not even sure that it was obstructed at all it didn’t seem to have any effect better or worse after.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Well more updates. I didnt have time to do a leak down on it last night plan to do that today. I pulled the front plastics which I needed to for other reasons anyway, and found my radiator in embarrassing condition. I spent 30 min spraying it out Tuesday night and thought it was pretty clean. I still wanted to get to the back side and really clean it out tho and it was horrible. My starting point this afternoon is to check the MAP, leak down, and anything else I can come up with to try. I blew out the vent lines last night too the one to the tank had a good amount of sand/dry dirt in it by the check valve. Idk if it was enough to clog it up or not but worth noting.
102386
102387
 

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I don't know for certain, but something in my head is saying 150-180psi on compression numbers. I think it's probably "safe" to say anything under 100psi would be cause for concern, and anything over 140-ish is probably "normal", but I'll wait to hear someone confirm with shop manual numbers.

The old radiator hiding mud, no real shock there, but I can't see it contributing to your power generation issue without letting you know "limp mode" "overheat" etc....

Unless you know something we don't, I just can't see that new an engine having any compression or leak-down issues. I'm really curious as to what you discover is the issue
 
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I don't know for certain, but something in my head is saying 150-180psi on compression numbers. I think it's probably "safe" to say anything under 100psi would be cause for concern, and anything over 140-ish is probably "normal", but I'll wait to hear someone confirm with shop manual numbers.

The old radiator hiding mud, no real shock there, but I can't see it contributing to your power generation issue without letting you know "limp mode" "overheat" etc....

Unless you know something we don't, I just can't see that new an engine having any compression or leak-down issues. I'm really curious as to what you discover is the issue
I looked for an hour in the shop manual (referenced from 2015 but figured for this purpose it would work) but could not find a spec for compression test, only leak down percentages. I could have sworn I saw it before and tried to even put the document in bluebeam to use the search function, but apparently the file format wouldnt support the search feature. Go figure. The numbers with the motor up to temp were 120 dry, 130 with a small squirt of oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I don't know for certain, but something in my head is saying 150-180psi on compression numbers. I think it's probably "safe" to say anything under 100psi would be cause for concern, and anything over 140-ish is probably "normal", but I'll wait to hear someone confirm with shop manual numbers.

The old radiator hiding mud, no real shock there, but I can't see it contributing to your power generation issue without letting you know "limp mode" "overheat" etc....

Unless you know something we don't, I just can't see that new an engine having any compression or leak-down issues. I'm really curious as to what you discover is the issue
[/QUOTE

It has only gone into limp mode (overheating) two times. The first time it was 90 deg and I pulled an XMR 1000 that my buddy swamped his first ever ride about a mile back to the trucks. Alot of uphill pulling on the way back and had to stop twice as soon as the limp mode light came on. The second time the fan connector came off and the fan wasnt running. I found it odd though because it was 30 degrees that night. That was about 6 months ago though and it ran fine for months after that. I noticed the plug was loose immediately, plugged it back in, and let it cool before taking off again. It isnt using oil and the oil looks fresh also.
 

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any way to put a pressure gauge in the fuel line to make sure pressure is keeping up with the higher flow demand for the upper rpm range?
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I have a quick connect fitting on it now so I can pop a gauge on it quickly and in neutral revving it up to 7000 rpm it shows 51/52 psi. Would it matter that its in neutral instead of under a harder load driving it?
 

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It shouldn't, no, but then again, what could it hurt to check it while accelerating. I'd surely recommend that if the bog were intermittent, but if it's as consistent as you say it is, if you've seen the fuel pressure hold in neutral, stands to reason it'll also hold in gear.
 

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I have a quick connect fitting on it now so I can pop a gauge on it quickly and in neutral revving it up to 7000 rpm it shows 51/52 psi. Would it matter that its in neutral instead of under a harder load driving it?
Sorry Bomb…but YES it does. The EFI supplies fuel on load as well as RPM.


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Sorry Bomb…but YES it does. The EFI supplies fuel on load as well as RPM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, but it can only do that by working the injector pulse width, it can't electronically alter the fuel pressure. Point I was trying to make, may have not elaborated enough: his issue sounds consistent, not intermittent. Seeing his fuel pressure at spec at idle, I'd assume it's holding at any rpm.

If the bog/power delivery were sporadic, then by all means I'd be hawk-eying the fuel pressure at all drivability rpm, seeing what it does when the engine starts to bog. But since it isn't, I wasn't too concerned over the fuel pressure. However, as I said, what could it really hurt, to monitor it, while accelerating? I'm just not expecting any answers there, seeing as how the pressure is already confirmed to be consistent.
 
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I have a quick connect fitting on it now so I can pop a gauge on it quickly and in neutral revving it up to 7000 rpm it shows 51/52 psi. Would it matter that its in neutral instead of under a harder load driving it?
I you could I would like to see the quick disconnect and how it is hooked up. Just in case I need to in the future. Thank you
 

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I you could I would like to see the quick disconnect and how it is hooked up. Just in case I need to in the future. Thank you
His bike is an EFI engine, yours is carb. You won't ever need to do what he's doing, just fyi.
 

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Just thinking 🤔 maybe bad ingintion coil .. a bad ingintion coil doesn't mean you won't have spark when it's on it way out but may get progressively worse finally ending with no spark. .
Your fuel and pressure are checking out fuel system ✔ minus your dirty vent line if tank isn't venting I believe that will cause an issue.. is that check valve got dirt in it it won't take much to plug it..
Leaving

Air
No rag left in air box? Or in the top of carb? Under the uni filter I know I put a rag in there when filter is removed..

Electrical
since you have over heated it , how are.the wires no melted or damaged casings? How's the spark plugs wire that runs to ingintion coil?
And may not hurt to get dealer to run the buds system on it to maybe Pin point problem area
I couldn't get the code for my misfires on a engine light or scrolling through the fault codes on dashboard.. it only read it on the buds system at the dealership.

If it is a bad ingintion coil only way really to tell is to swap it for a good one and see
 

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Bad plug. Bad gas. Broken secondary spring, or wrong one. Wrong key.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
No real update yet. I did a leak test last night and leakage was 6psi.
Bad plug. Bad gas. Broken secondary spring, or wrong one. Wrong key.
Drained tank, stock secondary spring since I changed the primary I put the stock back in, doesn’t have the different keys, first controller had these symptoms, new Bom controller same, and removed back to stock same.
 
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