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Loss of power, bogging, rpms wont build, wont reach 40 mph

24K views 77 replies 9 participants last post by  HalfFull17 
#1 ·
I have done a ton of searching and cant find any info that is relevant to 2020, as most threads that pull up are pre 2013 for some reason. I think I have a fuel issue, but havent heard of any known issues with 2020 and fuel pump. It has been intermittently losing power for a month. I assume it was the belt slipping initially but it wouldnt build RPMs so I kind of ruled that out. I have not sank it or even had it in water over the footboards in 6 months and have filled up with new gas from different gas stations and hasnt fixed the issue. Last time I rode it the power was there and over the weekend I installed my CVTech primary and reinstalled the stock secondary spring with a gates belt (previously running a WKP 32" tire spring). I was anxious to see what a difference it made and it would barely sling dirt in low gear I was back to having no power, not building rpms, and just a bogging feeling. Wouldnt get over 35 mph and didnt get there in a hurry. The primary and secondary are working fine the belt rides to the top of the primary and secondary is functioning normally. I have not checked fuel pressure yet I didnt have time to keep messing with it last night and have a ton of work to finish up before our ride next weekend so Ive got to diagnose this thing quick in the event I need to order parts. Mods are free flowing custom exhaust from head pipe back, uni filter w/ 2" snorkel riser from the air box (just re-did the snorkel risers and filter and had same symptoms before and after), and attitude fuel controller (adjustments adding fuel have not helped). Ill list the symptoms and observations first.

2020 Outlander 450 DPS

-Noticeable power loss to 50% or less down low, then wont build rpms at all they just slowly rise until 30-35 mph and I'm topped out. (Not sure of RPM, my guages werent in last night when I tested it out and cant remember what they were last time)
-Occasionally when I take off from a stop it bogs and dies but has always had that ridiculous bog upon blip of the throttle nonsense since it was new. It just didnt shut down when it bogged until this started. It will start right back up however.
-Two different times it made the machine vibrate pretty noticeably in the foot board area while limping it home
-Is not throwing a code
-after a wot run which had no power and about 30 sec of idle getting it back to my shop the plug was whiteish grey/ whiteish grey pink in color
-Just re-ran snorkels so it is clean and obstruction free, no water or dirt/ debris from inlet to air box.
-Oil level is dead on

I guess its possible that Ive had bad gas the last two tanks. The last few months all Ive done is work on my house to sell, sell and move, and work on the new place, so it gets ridden a few times a week but theyre 5 to 10 minute rides ( I ride it to the store alot). Being so it takes a month to go through a tank at the rate ive been riding it. When I do ride it, I ride it hard it doesnt get babied at all except when its lost power and I baby it home. Im going to empty the tank and fill up with non ethanol from a reputable gas station and grab a can of sea foam on the way home, but if anyone has any knowledge of issues or common diagnoses based on the symptoms that would be great. I was barely going to have time to finish it up after going to 30s on no lift and getting them to clear, so this is probably going to kill my ride this weekend I desperately needed after the last few months going non stop and doing nothing but work.

I appreciate any input!
 
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#2 ·
Maybe bad injectors? It's a bit of a pain but you could pull them and see if they're shooting properly. I'm not sure if I missed it but the older machines were very well known to develop fuel pump issues and would run like crap when the PSI dropped below 50 so that might be something worth checking as a fuel pressure gauge is relatively inexpensive and nice to have for future troubleshooting.
 
#4 ·
Thats my first move to check the fuel pressure this afternoon. Mine is a 2020 and like you said Ive seen alot of issues with the 13 and older bikes with fuel pump but nothing after that really. Ive tried wording searches numerous ways but havent been able to find any answers. Ill probably pull injectors too, I had a GSXR 1000 a few years ago that wouldnt run when I bought it but it had been sitting a while. It was a 2006 with 4000 miles on it so i pulsed carb cleaner through the injectors off a 9v battery and it ran great. This one has never sat longer than a week so I wouldnt think thats it but I guess it could be if it got trash in the fuel.
 
#5 ·
I was just texting my dad about that and wondering if the controller could be a potential problem. I added fuel and lowered the transition ranges but it didnt help or seem to have any change in performance at all and thought it could potentially be faulty. With the exhaust 2" piping to air box and uni filter I would it would be ridiculously lean once removed, but I guess I would quickly find out if that were the culprit and could go from there without riding it long enough to hurt it. Anyone have any experience with a 450 with a power commander? Im pretty sure nobody has any maps for it, but does it still allow it to be tuned correctly and obtain optimal AF ratio? Id rather not have to take it to have it tuned, especially since were talking about a 450. I was hoping to avoid that until I did the motor swap, or I guess I could just go back with another controller.
 
#8 ·
Update: i checked the fuel pressure and it’s around 49-50 psi. Upon closer inspection the controller isn’t sealed anymore the grommet at the wires was tilted so I wiggled it and it popped right out. I also drained the tank and all the gas was clean so I just went to get more fuel and some sea foam for good measure and I’m going to unplug the controller. I’m going with a flash over another controller so I can remove/raise the limiters, lower fan set points, etc. I’m pretty confident it’s the controller at this point
 
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#9 ·
Updating to see if I can get anymore ideas. I changed to a new BOM fuel controller and took the exhaust tips off and pulled the baffle insert out of the muffler. It was ridiculously clean no black carbon at all, which goes in line with the spark plug appearing to burn very lean. Prior to this issue I wasnt over heating or having any codes come up and I had the first controller on it for 9 months before this problem started. Nothing changed for this to occur but since Ive checked exhaust for obstructions, checked intake and installed uni filter, checked fuel pressure a second time it looked to be 51-52 psi in all throttle positions. I externally cleaned the radiator last night really well and went down the road and it feels like 3/4 power until 4000 rpms then sluggish 50% power to 5500 where it flatlines at 38/39 mph and slowly creeps up to 5800 rpms and maybe hits 42. All I keep hearing is tire size, clutches, thats what you get with a 450 and big tires...thats not it. It has a new primary and gates belt with no change. Been running 28x10s since 5 miles on it and 3/4 of that time with a 32" tire kit. The thing bogs and I believe runs out of fuel. Im going to check injector tonight along with all the vent hoses and take a look at the valve clearances. Everything Ive looked at so far has been clean though. It has around 28 hours and 130 miles on it and has never sat more than 3 or 4 days without being ran. Ideas on what else to check?
 
#10 ·
Also meant to add that in neutral it revs slower than normal and hits rev limiter right at 7000 rpms.
 
#11 ·
Did you try running the bike between fuel controllers? No fuel controller at all, in other words?

I can't see your MAP/T sensor being faulty on that new a machine, but it can't hurt to pull it and just check for any oily vapor film or dirt on it
 
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#12 ·
Did you try running the bike between fuel controllers? No fuel controller at all, in other words?

I can't see your MAP/T sensor being faulty on that new a machine, but it can't hurt to pull it and just check for any oily vapor film or dirt on it
I did not and it was my intention to try that, but Jeff got me the new controller in 2 days so I just installed the new one. I figured what are the odds two are bad so I kind of ruled that out. Should I still try that?
 
#13 ·
I'm right there with you, the odds don't stack up, but wth could it hurt just to give it a try, right? Free and easy to try it/rule that out.

You mentioning that adding fuel via tuner not helping, has me kinda looking at that MAP/T real close. All those blinky boxes do is fool that sensor into thinking theres more or less air coming in than there actually is, it's then responsible for lengthening or shortening the injector pulse width. If it's sluggish or dirty or whatever, no amount of you twisting knobs or pushing buttons on the tuner will do anything. They're not terribly expensive are they?
 
#17 ·
Well from what I'm reading, the bike is starving for fuel. Can't make power/rpm without fuel. The spark plug and exhaust seem to backup that hunch. You're trying to enrich the mixture via tuner not having an effect, I can only really attribute to the MAP/T just not doing its job 100%

idk, just throwing that out there
 
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#24 ·
Pulled the controller same result. I did put it In low and just kept on it and and finally it did hit then hit the limiter but took a long time. What are the compression test numbers supposed to be? I got a reading and about to do a leak down on it after I pull the front rack and plastic. I cant find the numbers anywhere for a 450. I cleaned the injector it pulsed as it should I’m not even sure that it was obstructed at all it didn’t seem to have any effect better or worse after.
 
#25 ·
Well more updates. I didnt have time to do a leak down on it last night plan to do that today. I pulled the front plastics which I needed to for other reasons anyway, and found my radiator in embarrassing condition. I spent 30 min spraying it out Tuesday night and thought it was pretty clean. I still wanted to get to the back side and really clean it out tho and it was horrible. My starting point this afternoon is to check the MAP, leak down, and anything else I can come up with to try. I blew out the vent lines last night too the one to the tank had a good amount of sand/dry dirt in it by the check valve. Idk if it was enough to clog it up or not but worth noting.
102386
102387
 
#26 ·
I don't know for certain, but something in my head is saying 150-180psi on compression numbers. I think it's probably "safe" to say anything under 100psi would be cause for concern, and anything over 140-ish is probably "normal", but I'll wait to hear someone confirm with shop manual numbers.

The old radiator hiding mud, no real shock there, but I can't see it contributing to your power generation issue without letting you know "limp mode" "overheat" etc....

Unless you know something we don't, I just can't see that new an engine having any compression or leak-down issues. I'm really curious as to what you discover is the issue
 
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#27 ·
I looked for an hour in the shop manual (referenced from 2015 but figured for this purpose it would work) but could not find a spec for compression test, only leak down percentages. I could have sworn I saw it before and tried to even put the document in bluebeam to use the search function, but apparently the file format wouldnt support the search feature. Go figure. The numbers with the motor up to temp were 120 dry, 130 with a small squirt of oil.
 
#30 ·
I have a quick connect fitting on it now so I can pop a gauge on it quickly and in neutral revving it up to 7000 rpm it shows 51/52 psi. Would it matter that its in neutral instead of under a harder load driving it?
 
#32 ·
Sorry Bomb…but YES it does. The EFI supplies fuel on load as well as RPM.


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#31 ·
It shouldn't, no, but then again, what could it hurt to check it while accelerating. I'd surely recommend that if the bog were intermittent, but if it's as consistent as you say it is, if you've seen the fuel pressure hold in neutral, stands to reason it'll also hold in gear.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Just thinking 🤔 maybe bad ingintion coil .. a bad ingintion coil doesn't mean you won't have spark when it's on it way out but may get progressively worse finally ending with no spark. .
Your fuel and pressure are checking out fuel system ✔ minus your dirty vent line if tank isn't venting I believe that will cause an issue.. is that check valve got dirt in it it won't take much to plug it..
Leaving

Air
No rag left in air box? Or in the top of carb? Under the uni filter I know I put a rag in there when filter is removed..

Electrical
since you have over heated it , how are.the wires no melted or damaged casings? How's the spark plugs wire that runs to ingintion coil?
And may not hurt to get dealer to run the buds system on it to maybe Pin point problem area
I couldn't get the code for my misfires on a engine light or scrolling through the fault codes on dashboard.. it only read it on the buds system at the dealership.

If it is a bad ingintion coil only way really to tell is to swap it for a good one and see
 
#40 ·
No real update yet. I did a leak test last night and leakage was 6psi.

Drained tank, stock secondary spring since I changed the primary I put the stock back in, doesn’t have the different keys, first controller had these symptoms, new Bom controller same, and removed back to stock same.
 
#42 ·
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#43 ·
Purchased 2nd day air, at this point Im ready to get it going right so I can ride. Thank you for all your help and suggestions.
 
#44 ·
I would still check the fuel pump under load to make sure it can flow enough to keep the psi up. Like a diesel truck with big injectors, it may run good and have plenty of pressure at low flow for lower rpm but when opened up the pressure drops because the pump can't push the volume needed at that psi. If the pump is going bad it may not be able to push the volume to keep the psi up. Be good to rule that out anyways.
 
#45 ·
I am definitely going to check it out this afternoon. Thank you
 
#46 ·
Last night I pulled the throttle body and cleaned it out, just minimal amounts of carbon nothing significant, cleaned the map/t, traced all hoses and wires they’re good. I was about to start working on it again and the map/t sensor I ordered yesterday afternoon from Can Am parts guy showed up next day air and I didn’t even pay the $40 extra for next day! Always an excellent experience dealing with them. I also adjusted the valves they were out of spec some too. Now I’m going to put it all together and I’ll take another run and check fuel pressure under load. New spark plug should be here sometime today as well.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Im pretty confused at this point. I adjusted valves, fuel pressure is spot on under load, fuel is flowing large volume up to the injector, cleaned injector, installed new MAP/T sensor, blew out all vent lines and ran without check valve or filter on fuel vent, installed new spark plug, completely drained fuel tank and added new non ethanol gas with seafoam, checked all wires and hoses, removed old fuel controller thinking it was bad and installed new Bom controller, ran it stock with no controller, air intake has zero obstructions air box is clean with brand new properly oiled uni filter, high flow custom exhaust so its not a spark arrestor issue, checked cylinder pressure, did a leak down test, tested for spark, etc. Idle is fine, acceleration is ok but hard to tell with it falling flat on its face so early, and some other things Im leaving out im sure.

Maybe I am just extremely new and ignorant to CVTs, but I initially completely ruled it out because of the sequence my problems started occurring and the parts I replaced so far.

To recap, about a month and half ago after riding maybe 45min to an hr I took off from a stop and could tell the power wasnt there down low but when it got up to 35-40 mph there was a vibration I could feel in the foot boards and my speed topped around 40 with initial flattening of rpms around 5500/5600. From there it would slowly creep and pick up speed but very slowly. The next day it ran fine and had full power but for the next week intermittently power would be reduced and always a top speed of 40mph with rpms around 5500/5600 then creep from there. Some days were alot better than others then it became an everyday thing and always had those symptoms. During this period nothing had changed. 28" zillas had been on there over 9 months and always had great power with the 32" tire secondary spring and helix and top speed was about 54 mph, which it got to fairly quickly for what it is. I assumed it had to be CVT related and thought slipped belt, but I also questioned it because I figured a slipped belt would have caused revving without movement instead of bogging of rpms flattening out at 5500. So I guess 5500 became my new shift out. I already had a Gates G Force belt that had identical dimensions as stock, so I installed it one day and it had zero effect and the same issues continued.

Fast forward a few weeks and replaced some parts and figured it had to be something simple since its a 2020 with 60 hours and 250 miles roughly, and hoped one of the new parts might resolve my issue. So I replace the air filter with a uni filter, did all the work I mentioned above, installed a new CVTech primary, re-installed the Gates belt that has maybe 5 miles on it but installed the stock secondary spring, re-used the red helix from the 32" tire kit (was told by dealer I bought primary from it may produce good results), currently have the stock helix installed and have removed the secondary twice and reinstalled just to make sure I wasnt making a simple oversight.

I noticed when I pulled the red helix from secondary that the wear marks were significant and same on the inner sheave where it contacts the helix. That is when I decided to go back to the stock helix with no change. My engagement is around 2200 rpms and shift out is 5500-5600 I guess. What I dont know is whether my shift out is 5500 or if I have a fuel/ computer issue that limits the rpm and is controlling that. If this happened after the new primary install I would assume it was the setup but even then I havent seen anyone else have a shift out that drastically low when the clutches just werent set right. The low end seems to have power now but it gets to a lull point so fast it doesnt seem like it was prior to having issues. At this point Im starting to second guess if things are in my head or remember what it ran like at full potential with the 32" kit and the 28s.

Leading up to the issue/s:

-No modifications to clutch or increase in tire size
-Had been very busy getting house ready to sell so bike had been ridden regularly, but mostly on roads and easy trails by my house. It had not been submerged or had any water enter the engine ever and the CVT had not been submerged for 6 months.
-Never been swamped as far as engine is concerned. Swamped the CVT once right after I bought it but its been snorkeled ever since.

Immediate observations and action after issues:
-Removed CVT cover and replaced the belt with Gates G Force. CVT had light belt dust but it had been months since it was opened last.
  • Stock filter was mildly dirty but nothing concerning. Replaced with properly oiled Uni filter.
  • Began ordering parts and replacing with no luck so far.

This is a brief video hitting WOT and going nowhere fast. As you can see the belt never rides all the way up on the primary and vice versa for secondary.

 
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#48 ·
This run was after valve adjustments and stock helix put back in. Started in high gear and went WOT except letting off briefly. After I stopped I switched to low. Also, NVMD the snorkel pcs with electrical tape holding screens on them.
 
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#49 ·
Baffling...... not your muffler baffling, lol, the results of those videos. You can clearly hear the bike "buhhhhh" just struggling to get the rpm up. Thing needs a viagra :p

I can only think you've got an A/F ratio issue at this point, which you shouldn't, but the bike's not spark-missing, its just either starving for fuel or it's getting too much, likely the former rather than the latter. There's no adjustable timing map on these things, so that's off the table, gotta be lean, somehow. Fuel pressure and injector have been cleared, so it seems to come down to a pulse width issue, the injector isn't being told to stay open, but the "new" MAP/T shouldn't be replicating the old ones behavior.

Man, I'm clueless. Is there an ATV dyno w/wideband anywhere near you?
 
#52 ·
Baffling...... not your muffler baffling, lol, the results of those videos. You can clearly hear the bike "buhhhhh" just struggling to get the rpm up. Thing needs a viagra :p

I can only think you've got an A/F ratio issue at this point, which you shouldn't, but the bike's not spark-missing, its just either starving for fuel or it's getting too much, likely the former rather than the latter. There's no adjustable timing map on these things, so that's off the table, gotta be lean, somehow. Fuel pressure and injector have been cleared, so it seems to come down to a pulse width issue, the injector isn't being told to stay open, but the "new" MAP/T shouldn't be replicating the old ones behavior.

Man, I'm clueless. Is there an ATV dyno w/wideband anywhere near you?
Ill have to try and look it up. If I sent the ECU to get reflashed, would they be able to see what the potential issue is when they were in it flashing it and atleast then Id have some info to go on? Im really avoiding taking this to the dealer I dont feel like having them waste my time and take shots in the dark. Im not sure about the ATV dyno Ill have to look that up and see.
 
#50 ·
do those have any knock sensor that would cause it to reduce timing if it thought it had bad gas? If so maybe the sensor is bad
during the period that it was going from normal to reduced power, did it do this during run cycles or go back to normal after a restart and then go bad during the run or on restart switch to reduced power?
 
#51 ·
#57 ·
Has your blinky box controller always been in the loop of did you remove it completely and run it

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I’ve put it back to stock without it all together and replaced it with a BOM
 
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