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Discussion Starter #1
Hey folks, long time listener, first time caller here.

I have found an abundant amount of useful info and tips here, but have yet to find something to help with my current issue... anywhere.

I apologize in advance for the long winded first time post. Just looking to provide as much initial info as possible, with hopes of making it easier for you to help me.

08 Outlander 800, gauge started reading out "communication failure" maybe 6 weeks ago. does not display MPH, RPM, or gear location. tried a few things to get that working properly, with no luck. wasn't to worried about it at the time, as the info that it doesn't show is not that necessary to riding. Now about 3 weeks ago my machine started to stall while riding, it would run fine while cold, and stall once warmed up. anywhere from accelerating off idle to cruising speeds, my lights would turn off and engine would loose power, and the machine would fall on its face, stop and stall. if I ran it WOT, it wouldn't stall at all.

checked fuel pressure, once it was warmed up it would peak at 36 PSI. installed new fuel pump (Airtex brand I think it was) and it held consistently at 51 PSI. went for a ride, now the machine seemed under powered, just not spinning those wheels like she should. double checked fuel pressure, all good. pulled injectors to check spray, appeared good. removed idle bypass valve and cleaned the inner threads, re installed. removed air intake temp/pressure sensor, and it was covered in fine dust. cleaned it up, re installed, and tried starting the machine.... nothing.

no cranking, no fuel pump priming, NOTHING. when turning the key from off to headlights on, the fuel pump spins up for a fraction of a second, the lights flash for a fraction of a second, and I can hear and feel a single click in my relay.

now, I went from injectors out of the head, spraying fuel all over with fuel pump, lights, etc working fine, to completely dead 5 minutes later after only touching the IBV and IATS, nothing else.

so I started with the easiest things first and worked my way up from there. new battery and terminal connections, all new fuses (front and back) and relays, removed and cleaned kill switch assembly, cleaned key and ignition, checked the connection on the gauge, swapped ECM's with another machine, pulled fuse box and checked wires under box and 8 inches into the harness and finally took it to a dealer. they had no idea what was wrong, wasn't showing any codes or giving them any leads at all. I was charged $600 for them to double check all of my work, and solder a wire.

I have since checked all my electrical connections, which were cleaned and dielectric greased around 6 months ago. no problems that I can find there, so now I am stumped.

has anyone seen anything like this before? anyone have any idea which way to go next? I am leaning towards an entire new wiring harness, but would like to know that's the problem before hand.
 

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Well , welcome to the forum ,
Gonna have to think on this one as it seems you have covered everything that pops into my head . But......


I found some talk of the diode in the fuse box .
It seems like the only thing you didn't touch though I'm not sure if it even pertains to your problem .

 

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Yeah welcome to the site, officially, heh.

As I'm reading through this, I can't help but think there are a few separate issues somehow happening in sequence, but not exactly "related" to one another:

That communication failure, affecting your speed and gear position and all, I think would be singled to the speed/trans position sensor, isolated to just that issue.

Then your fuel pump started going out, so you correctly replaced it, another singular issue.

That intake temp/pressure sensor, we've also read about contributing to rough running symptoms, cleaning it may or may not be a "long-term" fix, again, an isolated issue, might consider replacing it with new, after you get it back to running again.

But something tells me your key/ECM/ignition switch has more to do with your no-start condition than anything else. I'm sure you know the key has to be coded to the ECM you swapped with the other machine, unless you were able to use its key at the same time.

That fuel pump cycling for a split second and your lights coming on briefly, but not continuing from there.... I can't help but think there's something going on between your switch, key, and ECM.

If at all possible, if you haven't yet, put a new ignition switch on it, with a known good ECM and key combo paired to each other, and see what that does for ya.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Replaced the 1 amp mini diode fuse with a brand new one as well. Only because I dropped and lost the original one after using a weeks worth of careful on the actual fuses, just to drop and loose the diode. And of course that took a week to get mailed in. As far as I could tell, the only thing it has a role in is the gauge power. Without it, no power, with it, power.

When I first saw the communication failure, I took a hint from the info it wasn’t giving me. Removed and cleaned all the gear indicator pins, installed new wire splices, and cleaned the RPM/speed sensor and nothing changed with that.

I’ve only owned this machine for 8 months or so, and learned a lot as I go. Mostly thanks to people on these forums, thanks.

Once utterly stumped on the no start problem, I went to the dealer. Talked to a guy and he wasn’t sure what to think. I asked if he thought the key could be doing it, and we decided it was worth programming a new one. I wanted another one anyhow. The next morning after dropping it off they informed me that it wasn’t the key because their can am program wasn’t telling them it was. I asked them to install a new ignition and program 2 new keys.

Long story short, they did none of that and charged me for the “labor” of confirming everything I had told them it was/wasn’t doing. When I asked why in the hell they didn’t even try a new key/ignition, they didn’t have much for an answer.

The reason for swapping ECMs was because they broke a pin off of mine, and insisted that was the problem. $1,300 and it’ll be fixed. I fixed the pin and had them swap ECMs with another machine to see if it behaved the same, and it did. I do not know if they tried the other key, or my key, with the other ECM. The experience was so bad, I don’t even want to call and ask.

If I can’t figure anything out, I’ll have to make the journey to the next closest dealer I guess.
 

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Yes on the next dealer .
It looks like all of your attempts were documented by you .
I suggest printing these out and giving them to the new dealer .
Many are apprehensive about trying to fix another dealers mistakes.
I'm curious as to why they would not change the ignition switch ?
Best of luck to you.
Bonz
 

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Discussion Starter #6
the dealer called me after having it in the service shop for 90 minutes, telling me about the ECM. After work I stopped in to discuss the problem face to face, and ask if they had any luck with the key. They told me they didn’t try a key, or ignition. They insisted that it wasn’t worth trying, as it would tell them DESS key chip malfunction, or something along those lines. I asked if maybe the key was the problem, and it just wasn’t showing them that on their program. So I asked them to forget about that and install/program a new key and ignition. 4 o’clock the next day I called to see when I could pick it up and they told me they were still looking for the problem, and never did the key. Ended up picking up the ATV after work that day, still torn apart from all the “checking” they were doing.

Would it be possible for the “Communication Failure” message to somehow override the DESS key failure? I was dead set on it being the key when I dropped it off. After picking it up I guess I just took their word on it not being the key. Seriously rethinking that now. Maybe ill load it up this weekend and make the drive to another dealer.

Picked up a 18.9 AH battery to throw in, maybe ill get lucky and that’s all it is….
 

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Just to reiterate/clarify- the key HAS to be coded to the machine's ECM at a dealer or perhaps an Indy with the Buds software capabilities.

You won't get anywhere just swapping over another ECM, unless you're able to also use the key coded to it.

But before any of that, power has to flow to/through your ignition switch. We've all read, as I'm sure you have as well, that they will eventually wear and go out, I'm not sure cleaning yours really "fixed" anything. You can change the ignition switch yourself, it is unrelated to the DESS key/ECM program. It's "just" an ignition switch.

From what all I'm reading of your skillset/testing, hell man, why bother with a dealer? lol

The point I guess I'm trying to make, is you can purchase and replace the ignition switch yourself for far less than the hassle and cost of bringing your bike to the dealer. That would at least, or should, restore some juice flowing through your bike.

Then if the key is an issue beyond that, you'd know, and could proceed accordingly.
 

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Going a step beyond what BB said above....I believe the key is coded to the ECM AND the dash. So just swapping the ECM may not work. (I can't remember where I heard this....so I may be wrong....but)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I’ll see what I can find for the fastest shipping to get a new ignition. Any recommendations?

BBomb, you’re right it’s worth a shot. And may very well be the only problem. It has given me troubles in the past, requiring the key to be wiggled just right while holding the start button before it would fire. I thought I solved that by cleaning the slide terminals in the ignition. Perhaps I just prolonged the imminent failure, and that’s what I’m up against now.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Does anyone know if these machines (outlanders) have a top sensor? I can’t find anything about one in the service manual, but I suspect it would since it’s fuel injected.

Just trying to think of stupid simple things that could be causing my problem. It seemed so quick and stupid the way it quick working at the drop of a hat, so I can’t help but think it could be something so simple, that I’m just over thinking it.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Tip sensor roll sensor, any sort of sensor that would kill power in the event of a tip or role. i believe most of them are magnetic in one way or another, not really sure though. i thought maybe that had gone bad, resulting in not letting the fuel pump prime, or anything beyond that.
 

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Nah, not on these machines, no
 

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There is an intricate dance those DESS bikes have to perform, in order to fire/start/run.

I'm not 1000% sure on the particulars, but essentially, the ignition switch provides power to the fuel pump; the ECM won't generate spark unless the key code jives.

So ya gotta have everything happily working together
 

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As for your parts source, OP, I mean, there aren't many sources for OEM parts that save you any off full list. Most of the time I just go to my local BRP dealer and pickup what I'm in a hurry for. I'd be surprised if they didn't have an ignition switch in stock, but then again, maybe not....

Rocky Mountain ATV sells BRP below list price, but shipping often overrules any savings you might otherwise see.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
im not trying to give any more money to my local stealership. even if i went through them, lord knows they wouldnt get the part in until next tuesday. i never had a problem dealing with the parts counter and waiting for parts to arrive. but after the service shop raked me over the coals, thats the end of that relationship.

id rather wait just as long and throw my money to another company.

a guy could probably test that ignition switch for power flowing through? ill have to look in the service manual tonight.
 

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Two Wheel Pros is where I get my OE stuff .
Used to be Honda of East Toledo but they've changed alot .
 

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Discussion Starter #19
New ignition finally arrived. Got it installed, and nothing hasn’t changed... I don’t want want to start throwing money at parts hoping to fix it. But that’s about I’ll i can think to do.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Has anyone ever had a new key programmed without taking the entire machine to the dealer? I would think if they had a like model, all they would need is the ECM
 
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